Thanks for letting us know, Liam - I love a good debate, especially from someone who doesn't seem to mind taking a lot of flak, LOL. :D
@Liam – "I only try to convert those that try to convert me"
Then what the hell are you doing here?
YOU opened this sub-thread with "This chart is PERFECT! It illustrates the amazing incapacity of atheists to comprehend something greater than themselves". Did you consider this to be helpful as an addition to the discussion? Or just an annoying troll?
This is an Atheist site. We come here to share material and ideas to help us combat the inequities levelled at us by theists (among other, more social pursuits). In general, we do NOT come here to debate the existence of your invisible sky daddy – we've long ago achieved "enlightenment" in that respect.
Every so often some clueless theist intrudes either to disrupt reasonable conversations or (like you) to throw out a troll net containing an outrageous and/or offensive claim. Unfortunately, when this happens some members, knowing they should ignore trolls, are unable to resist treating the intruder as a legitimate thinker. They temporarily forget the burgeoning axiom:
"If you could reason with religious people, there wouldn't BE any religious people."
– David Shore
– David Shore
Critical judgment demands evidence, therefore trolls are constantly called upon for evidence for their god. These calls are always summarily ignored because there IS no such evidence. Some trolls believe that their sparkling mastery of debating skills will dumbfound even the cleverest atheists. They seem unaware that many became atheists because their insistence upon logic and reason gave them no alternative. And, of course, the very cleverest avoid such pointless debates entirely (I say, being fully aware that this post places me well outside their ranks).
Some small number of theists visit TA with an open mind. They don't last long. Presumably, when presented with reason instead of fairy tales, logic instead of distortions, facts instead of faith they retire to reconsider their positions. Some undoubtedly reappear as atheists.
In summary, Liam, you contribute nothing new to the millennia-old debate. Retire to reconsider your position, or present something new – like verifiable evidence of the supernatural (excuse the oxymoron). (I won't hold my breath.)
I'm told my position is as intransigent as that of the theists I rail against. This may be true because, not only have I seen NO evidence of the supernatural, I see no reason to look for any. We fit perfectly into the universe as it is.
I read a bunch of the posts in this thread.
How it is possible to believe the bible is true without being a creationist? I don't think it is. Genesis 1:1-2:3 gives a creation story which is followed immediately by a contradictory creation story. The ark episode says that Noah got 2-7 of every species on earth into a wooden boat and managed to keep them alive enough to reproduce for 40 days.
Seems creationism is a big part of the bible and a big part of the modern fundamentalist dogma.
I am not an atheist but I do question religion. The hard part about questioning religion is that no one has answers to these questions which really frustrates me. Moreover try to ask these questions to someone of strong faith and they suddenly become defensive and angry. I am not trying to insult them, but trying to better understand what they believe and why they believe it. I wish there was someone I could talk to that made sense, but alas I guess atheism is just further down the road of life for me. Yet I am still struggling to find some reason to hold onto my faith.
Hi Adam, if you read my previous posts in this thread you will eventually come to one which suggests this chart could have an addition. Particularly, the answer to the question "Evil Exists?" could also have the answer "no". This would mean that someone's actions are not measured on an absolute moral scale (that's the kind imposed by a god) but are in fact measured by each observers moral scale. Bit confusing at first but hopefully some examples might help.
example 1: Someone decides to donate to a charity. They perceive this as a good action as it helps out people in need (or w/e the charity is for). Someone involved in another charity might think this action is not good because they disagree with the principles of the charity. Each person is judging the action on their own moral scale.
example 2: The Allies in world war 2 fought against Hitler because he was slaughtering millions of Jew's and other people who were not of "Aryan" descent. They saw this as totally evil (for whatever reason) to such a degree that they HAD to go and stop it. On the other hand, Hitler was trying to resurrect the master (Aryan) race. He thought the benefit to Germany and the world outweighed the destruction of the non-Aryan peoples. He truly thought what he was doing was a good thing. Once again, both sides judge the actions by their own moral scale.
There is no absolute evil or good.
The forum that was asked for.
Because I hit the stumble button, and this popped up. You don't like that? Well... Better to be pissed off than to be pissed on...
Read the forum...
I have no particular belief about the origins or size of the universe, but you can believe what you want to believe.
"Adam" I am on page 277 of 383 in a book I bought 4 days ago by a 'Dan Barker,' CO-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, called "Losing Faith in Faith - From Preacher to Atheist" and it's a page turner, he has given me answers to questions I didn't even think to ask, he has sooo much information on the pitfalls and misguidance's of religion. It's an enlightening read and I wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone and everyone out there who are still sitting on the fence between religion and reality, and I believe it could help you with some of those questions you've been asking about religion (including this 'Quick and Easy Guide to God', in more detail,) I've been a nonbeliever for most of my 56 years of life and thought both of my eyes were wide open, but he has showed me that I'm still walking around with one of them closed, a good read, and packed with eye opening info (for both of your eyes).
Hmmm... I have doubts that 'evil' exists other than in the minds of misguided people. If you removed humans, the earth would be "evil free". There is no evil in the plant or animal world. I suppose some folks would ague that a carnivore is evil. Uh, no. I really don't want to get into a semantics battle. To me, there is a difference between survival (animals, etc.) and the wanton destruction of life, typically with no conscious reservations. That, to me, is where evil resides-- in the minds of some truly sick people.
Anyway, your point is made. I like it....
As always, these are my opinions based on my experiences in life. Any research errors are mine alone.
I love flow charts! This is what went through my head when I was still going to church and reading the bible more. Too much bible reading me thinks lol.
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