Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on November 22, 2012 at 6:12pm

Hey,

The important point is that when a kid gets a present under the tree on Christmas morning it is because there IS an intelligent being who went to the effort to buy just what the kid wanted or needed, wrapped it, and put it there.

In that example, we do happen to know that there is an Agent behind it. But that is the very thing we're trying to determine with The One, True God question. Specifically, is that Agent the One, True Santa or is it our parents? In the same way, is what we are observing to be claims of acts of god acts of The One, True God or the acts of something else?

Finally, I'm nost asking if a god exists but if your god is The One, True God?

- kk

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on November 22, 2012 at 6:51pm

btw, happy thanksgiving - kk

Permalink Reply by Ron V on November 23, 2012 at 10:50am

I am a nontheist - but I'll throw out a "view" I held for some time (not my current view, however).

I see "god" as the sum total of all things. My "god" is observable and knowable, by all humans, without organized religion, just not a "god" invented by the human mind. How can this/my "god" not be the one true god?

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on November 23, 2012 at 8:01pm

Hey Ron,

We'll sure, this makes sense. But how do I know that your identification of The One, True God is correct? Why couldn't it just be Helios, or YHWH, and not the sum total of all things? That's really the question for me. I realize you know that, but how would I know that?

- kk

Permalink Reply by Ron V on November 24, 2012 at 11:48am

Helios and YHWH have defined features and adherents that make specific claims about these gods. "God" defined as the sum total of all things merely encompasses Helios and YHWH for what they are- ideas. For you to accept this is, like all things, for you evaluate the claim of god as the sum total of all things on its merits and decide if it is compatible with everything we know.
(For the record, this is not my current view of things, and I believe George Smith addresses god as the sum total of all things in Atheism, the Case Against God)

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on November 25, 2012 at 1:59am

Hey Ron,

Right, but it still begs the question, who do I worship? YHWH, Helios, etc. or your one encompassing god?

- kk

Permalink Reply by Ron V on November 25, 2012 at 10:11am

All things, since they are manifestations of a god defined as the sum total of all things

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on November 25, 2012 at 7:05pm

Hey Ron,

Yea, but how do I know that? That's a defnition you're providing but do I have any way of knowing that?

- kk

Permalink Reply by Ron V on November 26, 2012 at 8:34pm

You don't, unless I convince/indoctrinate you

Permalink Reply by Zachary Harris on November 25, 2012 at 12:24am

Why couldn't it just be Helios...

Well, seeing that even the ancient Greeks did not consider Helios to be The One, True God...

I've given what I consider to be some pretty elementary logical advice: if you have a genuine interest in identifying The One, True God, then you would do well to begin by eliminating from your short list those gods from polytheistic pantheons wherein even their own worshipers did not claim their deities to be The One, True God.

Obviously I'm biased, but I also think there is a lot of wisdom in placing an item at the top of your list to investigate claims regarding The One, True God having come down here to visit us, because if that were true it would trump the then relatively meager claims of any mere "prophet" or "messenger" of that One, True God. While Jesus is not the only one who has ever been viewed as an incarnation of The One, True God, He is certainly a noteworthy and exceptional case, seeing how no small number of people from all kinds of socio-ethno-linguistic backgrounds, from ancient times up to today, have been convinced of this incredibly audacious claim.

But heck, that's just my own advice and counsel. You can take it or leave it. You've already said that you've got your own strategy which you are going after; a strategy which seems to consist in asking other people to make a binary comparison of the probability of the influence of a given psychological phenomenon in contrast to the plausibility of a given polytheistic god being the true monotheistic deity.

If you think that your strategy is the way to go, it is obviously totally your prerogative to pursue that path. As for my role, I don't think that I have much to contribute to the direction this thread seems to be going beyond things I've already pointed to. Honestly, I do wish you the best, although I must admit that I don't think your present strategy will prove to be very effective if the goal really is to identify The One, True God.

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on November 25, 2012 at 2:01am

Zachary,

Well, seeing that even the ancient Greeks did not consider Helios to be The One, True God...

What does that mean?

- kk

Permalink Reply by Zachary Harris on November 25, 2012 at 12:06pm

What does that mean?

From your original post on Helios:

Helios is the young Greek god of the sun. He is the son of Hyperion and Theia.

If someone embraced the Helios narrative, then that would mean they believe in Hyperion and Theia as well, who in turn descend from Gaia and Uranus. Each of these would be regarded as "gods" in the sense of "a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes" but obviously not in the sense of "the Sole Creator and Ruler of the universe and everything in it."

If someone believes in 5+ "gods" then, by definition, they don't believe that any one of them is "The One, True God".

In terms of rhetoric, then, the whole question of belief in "Helios as the One, True God" is a straw man, since even the Helios narrative which you presented itself doesn't present Helios as as The One, True God, but simply as one of many supernatural/superhuman beings collectively reverenced by the Greeks.

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