Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jeff Melton on August 10, 2011 at 10:05pm

I recognize that a coral snake has a red, black and yellow color pattern.  I don't go near it because I have information indicating that snakes with that color pattern are poisonous.  What does this have to do with feeling pain?  Pain is a subjective feeling, not just a response to stimuli.  And how can someone feel pain and not be conscious of it?  That doesn't make any sense!  It is possible that coma patients react to stimuli that would cause pain in a conscious human.  It is possible that some coma patients have enough brain function in areas that produce consciousness to perceive pain.  What does that have to do with whether plants feel pain, or whether the article you cited made any claims that plants felt pain?  Absolutely nothing.

Permalink Reply by Stephen Walski on August 10, 2011 at 10:15pm

Your speaking out of your ass and showing your lack of knowledge on biological functions and how nervous systems and brains react.

 

We know coma patients can feel pain even though they lack consciousness(thats the whole point of calling them coma patients) because we can run pet scans and see what neuro pathways light up. We can also see the chemical reactions of pain stimuli in a coma patient.

 

Even all that aside. What exactly do you think pain is if its not neuro and chemical stimuli? Do you think there is some magic computer in our brains that is something more then neurons and chemical reactions?

 

It does not take conscious identification for one to feel and the body to be damaged and suffer because of pain stimuli.

Permalink Reply by Rocky john on August 10, 2011 at 9:34pm

let me ask you one question. lets say in the next decade or two they geneticaly engineer animals to feel no pain or emotions. to react to no stimulus and have no brain function except fot that absoloutly neccesary to turn plants into meat. lets say the animal basicaly stays in a harness or whatever with a feeding tube down its throat. would you then happily support that and eat that meat since it gets rid of all your objections that i can see?

Permalink Reply by Allen Sneed on August 10, 2011 at 10:53pm

Let's start with a definition so we are all on the same page. The original definition of veganism is "a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude - as far as is possible and practical - all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals, and the environment." It's not about perfection, and I think we can all agree it is a noble goal.

 

For those who feign concern for plants, I have a few points:

 

1. the vegan ethic seeks to avoid causing needless suffering (hence the "as far as possible and practical" part of the definition). All humans have a nutritional need to eat plants or else we will quickly die. Therefore, killing and eating plants is necessary as is any "suffering" they may experience. We can try to minimize plant suffering of course. However, according to the American Dietetic Association, there is no human nutritional need to eat any animal products at any stage of the life cycle including pregnancy, infancy, and childhood. http://www.eatright.org/about/content.aspx?id=8357. Therefore, the suffering that we cause animals when we raise and/or kill them for food is unnecessary. With the exception of sadists, everyone agrees that causing needless suffering is immoral (If you don't agree, give an example where causing another being to suffer needlessly is morally justified). There was a time when eating animals was necessary for human survival. In rare cases, it may still be necessary. But by in large, the only reason most humans continue to eat animals is out of tradition, habit and taste preference. None of these or moral arguments to continue eating animals, especially when we understand we have no need to continue the outdated custom.

2. If you would call the cops on your neighbor for sawing the legs off of live kittens or babies in his driveway, but you wouldn't call the cops if he was picking flowers for his wife, then you agree with the rest of the sane world that there is a significant difference between plants and animals and a significant similarity between animals and humans. And no amount of rationalizing your way out if this is going to make your "plants feel pain too" argument sound any more intelligent to those of us who aren't desperately trying to defend a behavior we were indoctrinated with as children (i.e. eating animals).

 

3. If you still insist on a acting like a stubborn Creationist and persist with the "plants feel pain too" argument, please consider the fact that eating plants directly results in far less "suffering" and death than by growing plants to feed to animals to eat the animals. That's because most of the plants we feed to animals becomes waste. It's basic Biology 101. Pick up a high school textbook and turn to the chapter on trophic levels. 

 

Do with this as you will. I'm out.

Permalink Reply by Stephen Walski on August 10, 2011 at 11:08pm

Eating has nothing to do with morality unless you decide to make it so. We eat animals and plants because we are omnivores and evolved the ability to consume them. We are chemically made to digest both. There is no moral issue with killing animals for food unless you are suffering from the effect of the bug eyed round headed perspective.  Being that animals are cute so dont eat them.

 

You dont have to indoctrinate children to eat meat you have to actually indoctrinate them not too. I dont have to explain to my child why they have to eat meat. I put it in front of him and he consumes it. Thats nature at work. Little vegan children though have to be regaled with stories of why hurting the animals is bad.

 

Being aVegan is not a creationist viewpoint. Its conforming to the standards of our evolutionary layout. You will find  if you reread your nonsense with an open eye you demonstrated in your first paragraph that you are the one with a dogma.

Permalink Reply by Allen Sneed on August 10, 2011 at 11:17pm

We evolved the ability to do a lot of things, that doesn't necessarily make any evolved behavior moral. I have physically evolved the ability to rape women. Is rape therefore moral? Should I perhaps consider the feelings of the potential victim in this analysis of morality?

 

Or murder? I have evolved the ability to kill my fellow humans. In some cases, it may even be considered moral for me to do so (i.e. in self defense or in the defense of another human). But what if I kill for no good reason? What if I kill because I derive pleasure from it? Or just because I can. Now you may agree that killing is immoral.

 

Do you admit that animals suffer when they are raised and killed for food? Do you admit that humans do not need to eat animals? Do you agree it is immoral to cause others to suffer needlessly?

Permalink Reply by Stephen Walski on August 10, 2011 at 11:20pm

I only care about my species suffering. 

 

The moral bankruptcy of someone to compare the rape of a human female to a cow stuck in a confined area is disgusting. You should be ashamed.

 

Killing for food is not immoral. Its pretty much the way predatory mammals work. We being the top predatory mammal on this little planet kinda makes your inference moot.

 

I dont care if they suffer i cant taste it.

Permalink Reply by Karin yates on August 10, 2011 at 11:28pm

Your stupidity and ignorance are the only disgusting and morally bankrupt elements here.

Permalink Reply by Stephen Walski on August 10, 2011 at 11:31pm

Really as a woman you find it okay to compare rape with suffering of animals?

 

Its disgusting and outrageously demeaning to victims of rape to say such stupid things.

Permalink Reply by Allen Sneed on August 10, 2011 at 11:46pm

You know the dairy industry calls the system they use to impregnate cows and keep them lactating is called a "rape rack"? If you have objections to the cow/rape comparison, I suggest you boycott the dairy industry.

Permalink Reply by Stephen Walski on August 10, 2011 at 11:48pm

My issue isnt what is called what.

 

My issue with your statement is you just pissed all over the suffering of a human being to try and amplify the suffering of a piece of steak.

 

Thats inhuman and disgusting there is no way around that.

Permalink Reply by Allen Sneed on August 10, 2011 at 11:53pm

You really are a simple person, aren't you?

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