Right, so let's get this out in the open.


This is why some people dismiss the vegan lifestyle right off the bat. 

Because it is hard. 

Because even the most well meaning people can screw it up. Horribly. 

Last time I posted in this group, my life situation was different. 

My garden is bigger, now. My eggs come from the ladies that live in my backyard, and yes...I did butcher my first drake this year. (He was delicious. No regrets.) 

I am now living in Portland, growing a lot of my own food and buying responsibly when I can't. 

If given the option, I'd only ever eat lab grown meat. 

But that's just it. 

I can't see myself giving up meat or dairy. My husband won't, either. 

Not unless I win the lottery. 

I know there are vegan options that could keep me healthy and happy, but they are so far outside my price range, it's laughable. 

How do you find that balance? 

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Nothing in the story you linked to has any credibility. (one of the "sources" is the Weston A. Price foundation which has a bizarre jihad against anything Soy or vegetarian/vegan, and has been criticized by the FDA for some other loony views.) And reading the other linked page tells more detail about what happened to the baby that has nothing to do with veganism (the baby got bronchitis and the parents only treated with some weird home remedies.)

I cant speak for how difficult veganism is, because Im a pescetarian. I'll leave that for someone else to chime in.


Is this a more credible source for you? 

"They have been charged with "neglect or food deprivation followed by death" and face a maximum sentence of 30 years in prison if convicted. The hearing is expected to last until Friday."

They were found guilty and sentenced to five years. 


The police were alerted after the ambulance crew noticed the baby was pale and thin and a doctor refused to issue a death certificate. A postmortem showed the child, who had been fed only on her 37-year-old mother's milk, weighed 5.7kg when she should have been about 8kg.

She was also suffering from deficiency of vitamins A and B12, which may have left her susceptible to infection. She died of a pneumonia-related illness." 


The relevant passages in that article:

"The parents, who also have a 13-year-old daughter who was not found to be suffering from any deficiencies"

"The couple did not follow the doctor's advice to take the baby to hospital when they went for her nine-month checkup and found she was suffering from bronchitis and was losing weight,"

Looks to me like this is medical neglect; stemming from a distrust of the medical industry, not an indictment of the diet, no matter how much you personally like to eat meat.  I'm pretty sure omnivores also get bronchitis sometimes.

I commend your lifestyle in general, I think you are being very responsible.  Likely more responsible than many or most people who place blanket restrictions on their diets.  I, however, take exception to the comment about not being able to a be healthy vegan without winning the lottery.

"not an indictment of the diet, no matter how much you personally like to eat meat.  I'm pretty sure omnivores also get bronchitis sometimes."

The diet was a direct cause of death. That's what malnutrition IS. A weakness of the body because it's lacking vital nutrients. In this case, it was lacking A and B12, which left it susceptible to the disease that killed it. 

That's what the doctor reported and what the court found. 

: I, however, take exception to the comment about not being able to a be healthy vegan without winning the lottery."

Take all the exception you want. Let's compare the cost of pine nut cream to cream cheese. 

How about fresh produce to fast food? 

There is a reason the typical American diet is the way it is. 

Because that's the cheapest and easiest way to eat.

There are a lot of "may"s and "can"s in all the nutrition information in that article.  The direct cause of death was a pneumonia-related illness.  I'm certain a lot of factors added to the infant's susceptibility, among which I feel it would be safe to say the mother's diet.  I am not willing to discount all the other factors.

I am not surprised that luxury goods cost more than fast-food.  A large part of why whatever pine nut cream is might be more expensive than cream cheese likely has a little to do with economies of scale and existent food subsidies.

I will grant that the typical American diet is motivated strongly by convenience.  It takes longer to cook and prepare a healthy meal than to go to a drive-through.  I don't think it is reasonable to conclude that fast-food is less expensive.

Doctors made it clear that it was malnutrition that was a direct factor of death. Preventable death. 

No maybe about it. That's what the charges were. Explicitly. 

I could find other cases, too. It's not an isolated incident. 

The reasons WHY some foods are more expensive to others is largely lost and ignored by the American population. 

If you don't think it's reasonable to conclude that fast food is cheaper, then math is not your strong suit. I can get five double cheeseburgers for five dollars. Or five bacon cheeseburgers. I can't even buy the ingredients for one vegan burrito for that price, let alone the cost of my time to make it. 

Now, is it cheaper in the long run? NO. NOT AT ALL. Not when you account for the environmental impact and health issues. Raj Patel estimated the "real" cost of a fast food burger to be something like $200 in his book "The Value Of Nothing" - if one were to nix the subsidies and add in the health repercussions. 

But that doesn't really influence the typical American consumer. If it's cheap (in that moment.) fast and tastes good, that's what they are going to buy. 

I think that clarity is in your own perception.  Both of the statements in the article linking diet to death contain possibility clauses.

"She was also suffering from deficiency of vitamins A and B12, which may have left her susceptible to infection."

"The problem with a vitamin B12 deficiency could be linked to the mother's eating habits."

I'll also kindly ask you to refrain from the personal attacks.  I like to think that my math skills are among one of my strongest suits.  Your comparison between 5 cheeseburgers and a burrito are not very apt.  Firstly, it is not impossible to make a burrito for under $5, nor is it the most economical.  Try purchasing a large sack of rice instead.

I agree strongly with your point about true costs, I've not read that book, but it sounds interesting.  I think that as education levels rise, the awareness of other costs will also rise, which hopefully should influence the typical consumer.

I would be interested in seeing more cases, I definitely understand that diet affects health.  I'm not convinced that a vegan diet is less healthy than typical.

The clarity was in the guilty charge of "neglect or food deprivation" after the death of their breastfed 11-month-old daughter who was found to be suffering from vitamin deficiency.

NEGLECT OR FOOD DEPRIVATION is the charge they were found guilty of. 

By a court of law.. after a medical examiner presented the cause of death. 

Further, please show me where I personally attacked you? Because when I personally attack someone, I'm pretty clear about it. What I presented was an IF/THEN proposition. I did not name call or insult. 

So, let's sit down and do some basic mathematics, yes?

Say I make $30 an hour. (Which I don't. I actually make quite a bit more, but I'm going to assume that's not typical of everyone. ) 

Now, in the.....let's say, two hours it takes me to shop for and prepare a vegan meal as opposed to hitting a drive through, I've lost $60 right off the bat. Now let's factor in vegan tortillas, a sack of rice, a sack of beans and some fresh produce. That's easily going to run another $20. Yes, there will be left overs that I can make into other meals, but in that moment, the initial cost of eating vegan is much, much higher. 

Would you like to present another scenario to back up your opinion, or are you still feeling attacked. 

I'm sowwy if I hurt your poor feelings. 



I am feeling much more attacked now.  I don't think this is a conversation I will enjoy continuing.  Best wishes.

Re: "I am feeling much more attacked now.  I don't think this is a conversation I will enjoy continuing.  Best wishes."

Ah.. now you're catching on. 

I feel nothing but disgust and contempt for the 'pity-me, I'm a victim' card. 

I felt your words were exactly that, so I hoped to show you a  clear difference. Glad we did this now so we won't have that problem again. 

Best wishes for you as well! 


That poor baby would have been very distressed for a long time before it died.

Why didnt she notice and respond to that?

No wonder she was locked up.

Let's make it perfectly clear. 

These people were not brutal. They were not trying to hurt their child. Quite the opposite. 

They were found guilty because they refused to seek adequate medical attention for their sick and ailing child. That medical attention would have suggested something they were morally against. 

This is just a recent case. 

There have been others. 

Each time it is splashed across the news. 

Sometimes not in the most credible of ways. Sometimes with a total lack of journalistic integrity....

Which is why I bring it HERE for discussion. 

I wouldn't be a member of this group if I wasn't trying to live a more humane lifestyle. 

I'm here to listen. I'm here to voice my concerns. 


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