Como es de que hemos tenido este grupo "Piensa Ateo" aqui por TANTO tiempo, y nadie ha empezado un discurso sobre el "Machismo" o "Marianismo"?? Jajaja!!! Broma, broma.........no, pero en serio.....El Machismo y Marianismo en la cultura de Latino America es una realidad. Gracias al Catolicismo y la influencia de los Conquistadores, las consequencias de la mezcla de los Espanoles con Las "Indigenas," ha tenido un efecto tremendo. En mi opinion, no hay manera de sacar el Machismo de los hombres y Marianismo de las mujeres.

Yo soy de Albuquerque NM y me crie en un parte de la ciudad "mas o menos." Ni lo mas pobre, ni lo mas rico. Violencia domestica siempre ha sido "normal." Yo nunca sabia otra forma de vivir. Aunque mis padres eran "gabachos" yo no soy su hija biologica, yo soy Hispana. Yo no tenia una relacion muy sana ni segura con mis padres, y ellos se negaron de fijar en mi bien estar. Entonces las personas que en verdad me "criaron" eran personas abusivos. Desde una edad muy joven yo siempre tenia un novio. A los 15 anos de edad un hombre de 20 empezo una relacion sexual conmigo. Era un hombre muy peligroso, involucrado con drogas, que comitio muchos crimenes seguido, siempre escapandose de la policia. Ahora mismo ese hombre esta sentado en encarcelado por muchos anos. Y hasta hoy en dia estoy viviendo las consequencias de como me trato, como me "enseno" y como influyo mi forma de pensar, de mi misma, de hombre en general, y en lo que significa para ser "mujer." Yo todavia actuo igual que su mama. Su mama es el ejemplo perfecto de lo que quiere decir "Marianismo." Aunque soy Atea ya, yo he vivido por TANTOS anos.....o tal vez toda mi vida......sumisa. Como una mujer de los pueblos....

Ahora estoy en terapia. Estoy tratando de CAMBIAR!!!!! Pero yo todavia no puedo mirar hombres en los ojos. Violencia, violacion, amenazas, heridas, palabras de odio, falta de respecto.......como puedo llegar a confiar en los hombres otra vez? Es posible ser Atea, y creer en el poder de las mujeres, y a la vez estar.......delicada?

Bueno, lo que realmente quiero saber mas que nada es como ustedes vean "Machismo." Es bueno, malo, importa o no? Hay que reconocer que el Machismo es diferente atravez de Latino America. Pero quiero saber, que piensan los Hombres de Piensa Ateo - que piensan del Machismo? Son machistas tambien??

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Belle, admittedly I had to translate this. But I have to agree with you. There is, in my experience, a serious problem with chauvinism in the Latino culture. And with the things I've experienced, if it's anything like what you have, I sincerely feel for you. I actually had some events happen tonight that really pissed me of about this.

I feel I can comment on this because I have Latino relatives, one my younger sisters' ex husband from Mexico, the other, my other older sisters' husband from Guatemala.

My younger sister married a guy a good 15 years older than her. Fair enough. But after some years he showed strong signed of cheating. And in general their relationship fell apart. When my sister confronted him with indisputable proof of the cheating, he blamed her. What a slimeball piece of shit. To act and then blame her, WHO WAS THE VICTIM. He was manipulative and narcissistic with her for years. Granted, this happens in all cultures, but as much as I have heard about how men are raised in many Latino cultures, this is par for the course. It's shameful.

The latest disgusting event was when my cousin, who is a girl and is in the process of divorcing her husband, came over ( I live in the same house as my older sister) and when my older sister's husband started drinking he began to ask her for 'favors' ( my sister being out house sitting for the weekend). He kept pressuring her to have sex with her. This piece of shit has a long history of having zero fidelity. The night ended with my cousin being very afraid with this shithead stalking her out at her car as she was trying to leave. She asked me to come out with her as she left because he was so out of control.

It's not just these isolated events. Both of my sisters' husbands/ex-husbands spew chauvinistic and degrading comments about every woman they are around or have met. And ALL of their extended friends are the exact same way with literally, LITERALLY no exception. I have a few friends who are slaves to their sexuality, but this is a 100% chauvinistic mentality in their circle of friends with no equal in the many other people I have met.

When my younger sister confronted her husband about his cheating ass, he told her, "Well, you're a horrible wife, you didn't take care of me like you should have." This was how he was raised to think that all womens' purpose is to please and take care of males and to pop out babies and they have no other value whatsoever. I don't blame then for how they were raised, but for their ACTIONS. Until something is done on a cultural level this obscenity will continue.

Sorry, I'm probably venting about my older sister's piece of shit hooker husband who would pressure his wife's COUSIN for sex, but this is in my experience an epidemic problem in every point I have experienced Latino culture around me. From the subtle comments to overt forcefulness, it seems to permeate every experience I have had with my brothers-in-law and every social circle they are in.

This reminded me of a family pressure that my sister in law is going through. From her mother's side, is pretty much custom for girls to marry their first boyfriend and live together for ever after. My girlfriend and i have gone this route, not from pressure but because we are pretty much made for each other. However, her sister and her boyfriend ended after a few months of being together and she have been single since then. But suddenly, every middle age to old family member have been asking her about her wedding when it's me and my girlfriend that are engaged.

It's really a shame that her extended family cannot see past her being single specially when she's trying to focus in a career that takes a lot of time.

Estamos en la pagina principal!

I figure I can toss some of my Imperial weight to this conversation. Sadly, in English; my Spanish is absolutely terrible, but yay for Google Translate!

My wife is Mexican, born and raised in Mexico City, and her family situation is very much in line with the machismo attitude, sans the abuse.

Her mother went through 2 marriages, both men treated her like garbage, cheated, left her with 1 kid each and bailed. Her firstborn (son) is in her eyes, Mexican Jesus (not heysus, the bible one). He can do no wrong, no matter how poorly he treats her or his sister (my wife). 

I see a lot of connection to their religious upbringing and this attitude. They are extremely religious. My mother in law is borderline fanatical, and suffers from quite a case of paranoia driven mainly by fear of demons and Satan. Her religion (SDA, Seventh Day Adventist) teaches that there is a literal, real, actual war going on for their souls and that they are under literal, real and actual attack by demons at ALL TIMES. I have to stress this point again... LITERAL, REAL and ACTUAL, like, for realsies.

Her son is an incredibly self centered, selfish and arrogant man, who seems to enjoy looking down on anyone while parading around as a pious, kind man.

The first time I met them, and we had dinner together, the women were getting the food ready while he and one of his church friends sat at the table waiting. I decided to go into the kitchen and help out and he actually criticized me for it.

When the food was being served, he of course got the first portion, and when his wife reached for my plate he said "Men get to eat first," to which I replied "Not in my world," and handed my full plate to my wife.

As I said, it is not as extreme as Belle's case, but it is definitely evident and even from what my wife tells me of the attitude of people in Mexico, machismo is a terrible problem that allows women to be oppressed, kept down, kept dumb and is encouraged by tradition and religion.

En Español:

Me imagino que puedo tirar un poco de mi peso Imperial de esta conversación. Lamentablemente, en Inglés ; mi español es absolutamente terrible , pero yay for Google Translate!

Mi esposa es mexicana , nació y creció en la Ciudad de México , y su situación familiar está muy en línea con la actitud de machismo , sans el abuso.

Su madre fue a través de 2 matrimonios , tanto los hombres la trataban como si fueran basura , engañado, la dejó con 1 niño cada una y rescató . Su primogénito (hijo ) se encuentra en los ojos, mexicano Jesús (no heysus , la biblia uno). Él no puede hacer mal , no importa lo mal que ella o su hermana (mi esposa ) trata .

Veo un montón de conexión con su educación religiosa y esta actitud . Son extremadamente religioso. Mi suegra está al borde de fanáticos, y sufre de un gran caso de paranoia impulsado principalmente por el miedo de los demonios y Satanás. Su religión ( SDA , Seventh Day Adventist ) enseña que hay un literal verdadera guerra , , real pasando por sus almas y que están bajo ataque literal , real y efectiva por los demonios en todo momento. Tengo que insistir en este punto, de nuevo ... LITERAL , real y actual , como, por realsies.

Su hijo es un increíblemente egocéntrico, egoísta y arrogante, que parece disfrutar mirando hacia abajo a nadie mientras desfilando como un hombre piadoso , amable .

La primera vez que se reunió con ellos , y cenamos juntos, las mujeres estaban recibiendo la comida preparada mientras que él y uno de sus amigos de la iglesia se sentó a la mesa esperando . Decidí ir a la cocina y ayudar y de hecho me critican por ello.

Cuando se servía la comida , se levantó por supuesto, la primera parte , y cuando su esposa llegó a mi plato , dijo "Los hombres llegan a comer primero ", a lo que respondí " No en mi mundo", y entregó mi plato lleno de mi esposa.

Como ya he dicho , no es tan extremo como el caso de Belle, pero es sin duda evidente y aun de lo que mi esposa me dice de la actitud de la gente en México , el machismo es un problema terrible que permite a las mujeres a ser oprimidos , mantuvo abajo, mantenido mudo y se anima por la tradición y la religión.

Yeah, and that just emphasizes what I was saying that this attitude is designed to keep women down, because what is worse than seeing a form of kindness as insult?

Joder me da mucha pena que hayas sufrido el machismo Belle. :(

Espero que puedas superar tu historia de maltratamiento del parte de los hombres y que puedas reclamar tu confianza, esfuerzo y dignidad. Los cabrones siguen tratando mal a las mujeres y demasiada gente da excusas. Que es "la culpa de la mujer". O el paro. O alcohol. O depresion. Que tonterias. El abuso nunca es por la culpa de la victima ni las cosas externas. Se elijen pegar, insultar y controlar. Una decision autonoma.

Lo que puedo decir es que en España, por lo menos, esas cosas estan mejorando. Yo por ejemplo andaba con el mano de mi novio en la calle en Madrid y Sevilla y Barcelona sin ninguna problema. Y tenia solamente una amiga que estaba maltratada. Haberlo dicho, no podia besar a mi chico en la calle de un pueblo. Y es seguro que mis amigas no admitian todas sus problemas con los hombres. Son cabrones de mierda. Existe mucha barbaridad en los hogares y no creo que disaparacerá nunca. Pero...como he dicho...por lo menos esta mejorando.

Con la generacion nueva en España, veo la mujer bastante mas fuerte, autonoma y con las ideas mas claras. Espero que sigua mejorando y que el machismo disminuirá como ha pasado con la esclavitud y las barbaridades del religion en el mundo occidental.

Disculpa mi ortografia, vocabulario y gramatica  :)

Davis muy bueno tu aporte, no formo parte de la comunidad gay pero me da gusto que lo vivan en completa libertad y que nadie los moleste. Saludos desde Argentina.

Carlos

Gracias Carlos. Tengo tres amigos de Argentina que estan fuera del armario por ahi y no suelen tener problemas graves ... pero todavia no existe un ambiente super tolerante ni abierto. Asi que nunca he ido a Argentina no lo puedo confirmar.

Sin duda tienes razon. Va muy poco a poco. La verdad es que no hay que esperar hasta que los otroas luchen contra el abuso. Cada uno tiene que combatir el machismo abiertamente con valor y sin vacilacion.

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