For the first 17 years of my life I lived in a society surrounded by Chritianity and like many other people on this website, saw contradictions within itself and science as a whole and so it was not long before I became an atheist. Considering myself to be open minded to other people's beliefs I still read some of their scripture to see their beliefs and point on things in case of arguments. With all the fuss going about Islam and terrorism I decided to read a translation of the Quran and for some reason so much of it made sense to me. I had no previous knowledge of Islam, no idea about Muhammad's history, or all those hadiths, but I decided I wanted to be a Muslim and I bacame one.
One thing I realized is that the hadith are very fishy and questionable and written some 200 years after the Quran was revealed so I decided to dig deeper and as a result I became a Muslim who does not believe in hadith.
I accidentally ran into site and group from some link and I read the reasons many of you left Islam based on what were issues relating to the hadith.
So my question to this group is, disregarding hadith and still keeping an open mind, what aspect of the Quran are there faults with which I should be aware of?
I encourage you to read AL-AHZAB and AL_TOBBA from Quran to realize how low is the writer of ths book in respecting others!
In my studies of pre-islam history it is obvious that two factions in Makka was rival to each other to get hold of trade routes of roman empire. Mohhamd somehow put together an amalgamation of Judaism Christianity and some eastern religions to confront other group. The pre-islamic society of HEJAZ was very tolerant and every faction respected others beliefs. That was why they had more than 20 different idols in KAABA and nobody wa going after other persons belief. Then mohhamd arrived and when he concurred MEKKA he broke all their gods!! When run away to MEDINA he kept attacking mekka's Karavan and taking merchants' goods.
His teaching when he did not had power was 180 degree different than when he got power. He killed all Jewish tribes around MEDINA and took their women as his wifes. He married a 8 years old girl.
If you are coming from a free mind family and falling to this scam you are insulting your intelligence. There might be God or not (its probability is infinitesimal)! But for sure if there is god he or she had nothing to do with this Mohammad or Jesus or Moses guys. If you are choosing Islam as a Pascal wager point of view you are in big trouble man.
You don't need to submit yourself to outdated cruel ideologies to find a purpose in your life. Just spent some time learning about science and enjoy understanding the world everyday by adding to your knowledge rather than accepting one the cruelest religions in the world. Beleive me I spent more than 3 years just trying to justify something good out of this religion and nothing came out it. You might wana go that dirction yourself but it would be a big waste if time.
I am not too sure of what you might be referring to in Al Ahzab and Al Tawba. I am guessing you talk of all the verses about killing and the infamous Verse of the Sword? All of the things I read which seemed aggressive towards other people was towards a certain group of people, either those who chased out the muslims from Mecca and then started attacking the muslims FIRST or those traitors who helped the enemy. Simply said anything in those two suras dealing with them cannot necessarily be called cruel because these verses are relating to situations in war and these things are common retaliations even in modern wars.
Yes when escaped to Medina he attacked caravans and such from Mecca but what does that mean? Disrupting trade and means of production of an enemy is a common strategy of war, in which he was involved with at the time. The Quran even says if they stop attacking and seek peace that the muslims should stop.
I am curious as to what you mean by the Hejaz society? Do you simply mean those who lived in the area known as the Hejaz or something different?
Also to say that pre-Islam Arabia was tolerant might have been true, but they were still not peaceful to the least.
You also throw out information such as he married an 8 year old, but are there any proofs to that other than hadith, which are very questionable?
Lastly you say to learn about science instead of religion, but I have a hard time finding any contradictions between the Quran and established scientific facts, may you tell me some things that do?
Hadeeth very, very, very important because it proves that the Quran is wrong.
The Hadeeth interprets the Quran.
A muslim can not be a Muslim man without believing in hadith.
proves that the Quran is wrong from Hadeeth,
HERE WE GO,And he followed a road; Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun,
he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness. (Qur'an 18:85-86)"
The Koran says, the sun literlly sets in a muddy spring.
There is a man called Two-Horned or Dhul-Qarnain (which many think refers to Alexander the great,who was represented with 2 horns in coins)
as going to where the SUN SETS. It literally says he found the place.
LETS SEE NOW from Hadeeth :
Muhammad’s interpretation about this was mentioned in this Hadith below,
"Abu Dharr was with Muhammad during the sunset. Muhammad asked him: ‘Do you know, O Abu Dharr where this sets?’ He answered: ‘God and His apostle know better.’ Muhammad said: ‘It sets in a spring of slimy water"’ (3rd Edition, Volume 2 p. 743,1987).
YOU CAN READ MY BLOG POST IF YOU WANT
Im sorry but the Hadith do not interpret the Quran, over and over it is said in the Quran that it is self explanatory and complete by itself. I realize a majority of muslims do use hadith to interpret the Quran but that is their fault, if one truly realized the history of hadith you would realize how wrong that statement is. How did people interpret the Quran for 200 years before the hadith were written down?
Also a Muslim CAN be a muslim without believing in the hadith, because otherwise there wouldn't have been any muslims for the first 200 years of Islam's history.
As for the Two Horned One story, nowhere does it say that the sun LITERALLY goes inside the body of water, the whole Quran is obviously not literal. That verse simply talks about the Two Horned one going all the way to the East as possible for him until all he sees is something like this picture
There are lots of books around the world which don't have anything contradicting the science (Quraan definitely isn't one of them). However, this doesn't mean you should accept their words as your recipe of life. There is no final guide for ultimate happiness in the world (by the way Islam's teaching is one the worst). So the wise way is to keep open-minded and pick the ones makes sense and doesn't harm others. The freedom of thought is a big human character I by submitting to Islam or any other religion you will sacrifice it big time. I see that you are looking for what is really precious and I am sure you will find the right path for yourself. Keep searching.
Well first of all the link which Hope gave is filled with verses taken out of context and he/she focuses on one little point out in the verse to try and give a false claim or simply the conclusion is wrong. I am not saying this in any way to offend Hope, but keeping an open mind must be done on both sides and its quite obvious from her "proofs" that not much research has been given to her claims.
As for you, my friend, Mostafa, I cannot shake the feeling that the hadith traditions get in the way of your perception of Islam. I will be the first to admit that there are many fallacies within the hadith and that they should not be trusted, yet sadly they are a major part of Islam and sometimes it plays a bigger role than the Quran. Yet, I when I read the Quran for the first time, with no knowledge of Islamic traditions or background, I was amazed at the message that it was carrying. I converted without going through any hadiths. I began to study them more and more as I became a muslim and at first I did follow them blindly but I realized at that time that what I was following from hadith sources did not make much sense, so I returned to the one thing that did.
You say that being religious in Islam will sacrifice free thought, but Quran urges that the followers of it do not blindly follow anything given to them, to investigate its truth and then make a judgement over it. It also talks about gaining wisdom and knowledge and also looking at different points of view and picking he most truthful one. These are the reasons why since I converted my grades have went up in my classes and also why I'm am much more interested in learning about everything, hence why I'm here having this discussion with you
I feel as if if you forgot about everything you learned about Islam from other sources and read the Quran on a fresh new slate you would see that today's religion of Islam is not exactly what it was meant to be.
I also don't want you to feel as if I'm trying to convert people in this group, I am just interested in you guys' points of view and wait to hear back from you!
I am amazed to hear from you that by just reading Quraan you figured it out that is pure fact. Idon't understand what you mean by Hadith. I never mentioned a Hadith in my discussion. I am exactly pointing to Quraan and nothing else. As I said Quraan is full of treat for any non-muslim person and full of torture scenes. Of course there are good stuff in it too, like lots of other religious books. Human morality is deeply rooted in our evolution process and everybody knows that learning, not stealing, being kind to your relatives and friends is very crucial to our survival. But religions like Islam and Christianity, Judaism, ... hijack these human natural morals and make you think that you can't be good without that specific god's grace. As I told you if you read quraan by taking your Muslim glasses off it's a literature disaster. It doesn't have structure and full of repetitions. His main message is There only one God Allah which just talk to the Chosen ones (mohammad) and if you don't believe in him after you death you give be tortured for ever with fire and burning melted iron. and if you believe in him you will get to live by him with lots of women to have sex and fruits to eat. Think for a while? Why he desperately needs us to believe in him? Why he just in all his history of revelations were focused on Middel-east? Why we don't see a single prophet coming to Mayans, Chinese, Greeks, ....? Why he likes to reveal his prophet in locations which are illiterate like Hejaz? 1000 years before Mohammad there are Plato Aristotle and great philosophers that up to toady we use their masterpiece literature and they believed in more than 20 Gods? Wasn't Allah around at that time to pick a chosen one (You know the meaning of Mustafa is Chosen :)) and worn them that you are wrong with your gods. Because religion just works on ignorant people!!
Mustafa I invite you read some other books for other great philosophers like Friedrich Nietzsche and David Hume. Read Human all too Human from Nietzsche and see what a real thought challenging book has to be:
It took me more than 3 or 4 years of studies to release myself from Islam. I am not like a person who got pissed off by some religious persons actions and stopped believing. This road is a slow process and to take all the fear that these religions indoctrinated in you you have to be brave and persistent. Best of luck in pursuit of truth.
Thanks for your kind message. It is always inspiring to see peoples like you who overcome such a huge fear-based monster in human relationships and free themselves. The way I lived before as a Muslim was real hell. Since I freed myself I see the world with all its beauties and I will say I really feel the living. By understanding evolution and science I feel connected to every living and nonliving beings in this universe. Religious people don't know what they are missing. I regret every single seconds of my life that I lived under religious dogma. I really like my fellow human kinds and I really want them to experience the world as it is.
By the way My cosines' name is Sasan too. Which means we are from the same country. Sometimes I really feel appreciative to the government of Iran to give us the real taste of Islam and forcing us to go and study more about this monster.
My best wishes and hopes for you too Sasan.
And I am sure Mustafa Deniz when gets his freedom will see and feel what we are talking about. All that's needed is a little bit of rational and independent thinking.
Merci Mosatfa joon; I always say the one and only great thing about the Islamic Republic is that it has enabled Iranians to understand what Islam truly is and has eradicated Islam from a future and free Iran. I see this in particular when I look at our youth: they truly are not Muslim. And visiting Iran several times as of just recently a few months ago (and I spent 8+ months there) it makes me happy to see more and more Iranians refusing to call themselves or associating themselves with Islam whatsoever. In fact, I even saw a good portion of atheists and this ranges from the youth to the 50+ year old taxi driver who has experienced life under both secularism and religious tyranny. Therefore, I feel confident that a future and free Iran will not have Islam ruling or controlling society in the way that the Islamic Republic has.
Mostafa, where do you live now (no specifics - just country)
I am in Canada Sasan. And I totally agree with your observations in Iran.