Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Cara Coleen on December 2, 2010 at 10:02am

If God teaches man how to speak, then mankind should have an innate ability to speak even when left alone his whole life. Leaving him alone in the forest should give him more opportunity to get close to God and be "uncorrupted" by the world.

The thing is, in the animal kingdom, all seemingly incoherent grunts mean something. In fact, I would argue that language is merely sophisticated grunts that we all just happen to understand because we're of the species who uses this particular sort of "grunting".

Thinking of language in the terms these people are thinking of it in is very one-dimensional and assumes (as usual) that mankind is somehow different or special; the center of creation. If we were able to communicate with other animals, I'm sure they'd be offended that we consider their communication method "grunting". They understand each other perfectly well! But don't they also have to be taught how to "speak" their own "language"?

Different variations of the same species have different "dialects" that are not shared across the board. If you live in a group or a tribe (or a pack or a herd), the members of that tribe (etc) have to come up with a means of communication that they all understand. It's not a difficult concept. A grunt that sounds like "cow" becomes the standard grunt for an animal being hunted by the group. If everyone had a different word or grunt-noise for "cow", they would not be able to hunt it as a team.

Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on December 2, 2010 at 1:45pm

i think he will just be able to make sounds or voices !

That's a pretty good start, though. Then, over tens or hundreds of thousands of years slowly add some intelligence (especially the empathy and pack/social interaction kind), and some genetic enhancements here and there in vocal abilities. Even if you just add a few new words per decade, the vocabulary gets really big. I could probably make up a few useful words per decade all by myself, if I put my mind to it.

When one's lifespan normally lasts only about two or three generations, perhaps it's difficult to comprehend the accumulated power and magic of genetic and cultural evolution that occurs over thousands of generations. (Hopefully the "believers" you're referring to don't also believe that human history is only as old as their ancient, written history!)

Permalink Reply by U-sef on December 2, 2010 at 4:10pm

i actually replayed to them with the same answers , not exactly though !!

Permalink Reply by Loop Johnny on December 2, 2010 at 4:28pm

Look at this. It clarified a lot for me on this issue.

http://richarddawkins.net/videos/471222-can-monkeys-talk

Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on December 5, 2010 at 12:20am

I liked this clip, thanks.

Jane Goodall was on 60 Minutes in October. (I couldn't find any previous mentions of this on TA.) Here's my favorite clip from that show, about a few chimp sounds and sense of humor. Only a minute.

Permalink Reply by Erik H. Brush on December 4, 2010 at 9:43am

The evolution of human vocalization and language is as simple and common sense logical as evolution itself. The idea that a divinity "gave mankind" vocal or language gifts is as absurd as using higher powers as an explanation of the universe and it's various workings.

Early hominids used simple guttural tones to convey identification of objects and concepts. As our brains and diets became more complex so too did the ideas, communication, and the patterns of vocalization. In fact common sense tells anyone with half a brain that the more ideas that you need to identify with words, the more words you will need to differentiate your world. The evolution of language is as basic is the evolution of species. It is driven by need, by diversity, by change. Embracing that which works better.

It does not matter if change and development is a choice of genetics, or if it is a behavioral choice or thought or willpower choice. The end result is the same! Any simpleton justifying a "God or Gods" gifting humans with speech, vocalizations, or language is on the "belittlement train". A term I coined for those who like to jump on the train of thought that the world around us, or a behavior or thought pattern must obviously be from a higher power, because humans, or nature, or the universe could not possibly have come up with this by themselves. They belittle nature, life, humanity, etc by viewing it as "Only through a higher power" thinking. These are the same people who destroy the planet by over harvesting oceans, using natural resources mindlessly, strip mining, clear cutting forests, and destroying the world because it is our right, and "God" gave it to us for our use. It is a sick and twisted mindset, and the language argument is just plain stupid!

-Erik Brush

Permalink Reply by Lisa on December 4, 2010 at 3:27pm

That's pretty easy to explain. How do you communicate with someone who speaks another language than you? You use gestures. Eventually those gestures can become sounds that are repeated for the same gestures and from that, they are given a word. Language is born.

Permalink Reply by 3equ3cp1fsw0n on December 5, 2010 at 1:13am

This discussion reminds me of the movie "Iceman" (1984).

One of the scientists who discovered him (40,000 year old man frozen in ice) starts spending time with the Iceman trying to gain his trust and get to know him. They have him inside of this biosphere type enclosure and only one of the scientists goes in to to interact with him (at first).

I love the part where the scientist is just sitting there chillin with the guy and he starts randomly singing a tune to himself and the Iceman really likes it and starts communicating with gestures to try to get the scientist to keep signing everytime he stops because the iceman likes the song and even tries a little bit to sing along. (I wish I could remember what the song was - I tried to Google it unsuccessfully).

It wasn't the greatest movie in the world but it certainly had its moments. I loved how it really made me think about the subject of language and communication.

Permalink Reply by 3equ3cp1fsw0n on December 5, 2010 at 11:35am

Click click click clock clock clock?