CNN has made a list of the world's most dangerous terrorists ... the list included men of different nationalities, ethnicitys and languages ... but they all share one thing ... they were all Muslims.

who are the world's 10 most dangerous terrorists?

I checked the FBI list of the 10 most wanted list of terrorists .. 9 out of 10 were muslims .. the entire list of wanted terrorists is almost all muslims.

and yet some people still believe that it's a religion of peace and prosperity.

There is a huge problem within this religion and something has to be done about it pretty soon.

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and yet some people still believe that it's a religion of peace and prosperity.

Different POV: They only call themselves Muslim. They've hijacked the religion, as have many, despotic governments for control over people who have to follow the assholes who interpret their scripture for them.

I.e., most Muslims are innocently following the dogma forced onto them. They are not the enemy. The enemy are those in power who dictate the dogma.

Different POV: They only call themselves Muslim.

Yes, that would be the No-True-Scotsman POV.

This same old "terrorists aren't real muslims, they just high-jacked the religion" is a tired excuse. Sam Harris even posted a piece on this yesterday.

There is no clear line between what members of the Taliban, al Qaeda, and al Shabab believe about Islam and the “true” Islam. In fact, these groups have as good a claim as any to being impeccable Muslims.

these groups have as good a claim as any to being impeccable Muslims.

Sounds too hopeless to me. I'd rather Muslims gain enough confidence to claim non-violence as their ideal. Otherwise, aren't you just saying that our only alternative is to eliminate every last one of them?

I'd rather Muslims gain enough confidence to claim non-violence as their ideal.

But they don't. They're pussies who don't speak out, because then they would have to face the horrors of their own religion, and that would be a reality check. It's like asking an obese guy to give lessons on a healthy diet. He's going to find out more than he's willing to accept himself.

That gives the extremists confidence. And they claim violence as their right. Even the most moderate and nice muslim still lends credibility to that shit religion, solely by being a muslim at all. Because if people would stop being part of a religion, it would stop being perceived as something "normal," and the extremists of that religion would get the psychiatric attention they deserve. In a way, even if indirectly, all theists are to blame for the actions of extremists.

Otherwise, aren't you just saying that our only alternative is to eliminate every last one of them?

I don't see anything bad about the idea of eliminating religious people. If you mean by means of killing them all, then no. The moderate ones will eventually come to their senses and give up their death cult anyway. But the fervent extremists? They can be killed. Nobody will miss them.

I don't see anything bad about the idea of eliminating religious people. If you mean by means of killing them all, then no.

Cool. That's an important point to make clear, imo.

The moderate ones will eventually come to their senses and give up their death cult anyway. But the fervent extremists? They can be killed. Nobody will miss them.

Cool again. I guess we agree on more than I thought. But I still have compassion for people who have to believe in something, under penalty of death... even if they're just being "pussies" for not facing horrors straight on. After all, even Americans went out flag-waving and invading Iraq, in fear of terrorism, killing a hundred thousand people who had nothing to do with the terrorism, and even sacrificing and additional four thousand American troops. The emotional/Christian-justified reaction sometimes just adds more damage to the problem that has no instant, viable solution. I.e., all in the name of people's simplified, absolute descriptions of "good vs. evil".

Yes, I agree with your comparison with the US going into Iraq and killing tens of thousands of Iraquis.

However, I disagree with your defense of Islam.  You say it would be inhumane to kill Muslims.  Interesting---can you point to anything humane the Muslims have done lately?  

I think that it is indeed us vs. them.  They can't be allowed to destroy western culture and ideals.  If they would just live and let live, than there would be no problem.

You do see the contradictions in your statements right? Islam is a violent religion. It is inhumane and endorses killing people who do not believe in it. So as people of reason who do not believe in religion, we will kill all Muslims whether they commit violence or personally believe in violence or not. 
But why just Muslims? Why not Christians and Jews too? After all, these religious texts also condemn disbelievers and endorse violence against them. 
Who is us and who is them? If by us you mean the west, well the west is full of Muslims and religions very much like Islam. If by us you mean non-religionists and them being religionists, then how do you suppose we "end" them? And if we end them, how would that make us any better? 

Not to mention, that they're not really the problem of western culture and ideals. You are far less likely to be killed by a terrorist than by a drunk driver. This kind of cnn and fox news rhetoric is quite destructive and alienating. The western culture is no better than Middle Eastern, Carribian, African, Hispanic, or Asian cultures, it is not the immigrants or the existence of others on the same planet as you that causes the problem. I think our biggest problems in the US are poverty, declining health, white collar crime, transgressions against human rights and freedom by the state, etc. 

Furthermore...

If they would just live and let live...

I think you're ignoring western imperialism and long histories of colonialism here. Do you realize how much control the west has over Middle eastern countries and how far that has contributed to their impoverishment and lack of safety? Do you realize how many human lives, children, die in these countries because of either western occupation or imperialism? I can give you a hint, the number is exponentially higher than those who die in the West as a result of terrorism. Or do you suppose that these children should be killed for simply popping out of the wrong vagina? I find it completely ethnocentric to claim that they must let live... It is not them who are militarily occupying the west or imposing economic policies on the west.  

I often wonder just how much of Islams violent tendencies are due to their history of being besieged by technologically advanced enemies that they had no other way of fighting.

You can look at it as an analogue of an evolutionary arms race. When a specie's predator develops an evolutionary advantage then the prey will also develop more extreme defenses. If there is any truth to this then the last thing we want to do is try even harder to eradicate Islam. That will only cause then to develop more extreme defenses.

Lastly , looking at our history in the Arab countries over the last hundred odd years , can any of you honestly say that they have no reason to hate us so much? Yes we might find their actions unthinkable as we are divorced from the reality of what they face there. But if you had lost innocent  family and children to cruise missiles you might have a different view.

I think you're ignoring western imperialism and long histories of colonialism here. Do you realize how much control the west has over Middle eastern countries and how far that has contributed to their impoverishment and lack of safety? Do you realize how many human lives, children, die in these countries because of either western occupation or imperialism? I can give you a hint, the number is exponentially higher than those who die in the West as a result of terrorism.

OMG, you must hate America, or freedom! (Just thought I'd stick a bit of satire in there, before some Us-vs-Them paranoic says it in earnest.)

I think also that anyone with objective insight into human nature, economics, and political/state systems should recognize that third world countries that suddenly become players in an extractive (e.g. oil or minerals) economy often breed oligarchic leadership. Only takes a few, despotic people at the top to take and spend all the profits, while keeping everyone else under "control", made even easier by enforcing religious subjugation. (Even Bin Laden was a product of Saudi Arabia, and its industrial growth.)

lucky for me, I'm at the heart of that debate... being half us, half them and all... lol

Yet Saudi Arabia and all its oily friends are the only real western allies in the region. I don't think the West has anything to fear from Saudi Arabia, because it's in their pocket. So Saudi Arabia is a bad example. But I get your point. 

But I still have compassion for people who have to believe in something, under penalty of death.

You are right about muslims who live in one of those pre-civilization, dark, islamic shitholes like pakistan, iran or saudi arabia. They can't just one day decide to leave islam. But I was talking mainly about muslims in the west. They don't have anything to fear but reality and facts. Yes we hear about honor-killings and such, but the VAST majority of the muslims in the west could easily leave islam with absolutely no threat to their lives. (I'm not counting in bitching from the family, because compared to death, that's really not a big deal. So you got disowned, big whoop.)

The modern muslims, that already live their lives as western citizens, enjoy all the benefits of a civilized society, but still subscribe to the cult of a destruction-loving cult. They give islam a veneer of credibility, whereas if only those cave dwelling bonehead terrorists believed in it, we'd treat the whole thing differently.

Muslims bitch about being associated with terrorism and discriminated against and bla bla and boo hoo. Then shave your stupid beards, and stop being muslims, because like it or not, it's a religion whose official policy is violence, violence and violence. It wasn't high-jacked, it wasn't changed, it is what it is. Saying extremism high-jacked any religion is like saying that sugar high-jacked candy. Yeah, no.

Leaving Islam in the West is not that easy. I for one, and many of my friends who have either been questioning or who have completely left and have had their lives destroyed, can say based on experience and information which you may not have that it is damn hard. First of all, it is not easy to break out or question the way you have been socialized to think. The human mind is highly trainable and fully equipped with defensive mechanisms that could enable one to deny any thing. Speak to Muslim university students for example who study biology or sociology or physics or philosophy about the duality of their reasoning. Not to mention, being oppressed does not help. Most people tend to reason that if a group is being victimized then the group must be innocent, and the religion of the group must be great. The more you oppress them and alienate them and take away their freedom, the more they will continue to resort to those defensive mechanisms and refuse to question their faith... and the more converts you will get by the way. Lastly, being disowned by your family, friends, and peers is not a "big whoop". It has detrimental effects on a person's psychological health and economic survival. Many homeless youth are people who have been disowned for one reason or another. Many of them are suicidal. Many of them end up dropping school because they cannot afford to stay. Many of them suffer from mental health issues. This can be even more discouraging for people who are questioning. Having no "examples" of successful and happy ex-Muslims to speak to and look up to, has a huge effect on those who could potentially follow their lead. Having no support systems either could force many to adapt the title of being Muslim, while not believing. I personally, as a woman, find it extremely difficult to leave Islam. Not only have do I find resources that are not racist and orientalist that discuss issues of Islamic theology difficult to find and access, but I have been denied the most basic knowledge about my religion since childhood and all my questions have been shut down with threats of eternal damnation. Also, as a woman, my family and community will definitely be far more judgemental and controlling. I'm not scared for my life, because luckily my family is open minded. But I am scared of what I explained above. 

I'm not sure what I think about the topic of hijacking and association. The Qur'an itself does contain a lot of violence, just as much as the Bible and the Old Testament. But the majority of people are either unaware of the violence in their texts (because they never bother to fucking open it) or because they believe that the violence is highly contextual. My mother strongly believes that. Looking at the reactions of Egyptians against the Brotherhood and revivalism is also another proof that people do not believe that. I do not think that people who actually commit no violence should be punished for their ignorance. That would just cause more violence and death. Also violently punishing people for unwittingly supporting violence seems kind of paradoxical doesn't it? Associating them with terrorists is a huge problem, because we then alienate the group and we force it to segregate itself from the community. This means more Muslim schools, Muslim camps (watch jesus camp), Muslim groups, and strong group cohesion. Within that context, it becomes easy to encourage violence and revivalist ideologies among society (again watch jesus camp). Sorry for the rant. Read more texts on sociology. 

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