Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Val Wuthrich on February 15, 2013 at 8:09pm

Creation.  Isn't God the cause of everytyhing?  If He caused it, He owns it, evil included!

Permalink Reply by Ceci on February 14, 2013 at 3:28pm

god gives us free will (and this fact makes him so great and merciful), but he will judge and punish whoever refuses to obey to HIS will. so we can do what our coscience tells us, but when our free will concerns something god doesn't like, we're literally fuck*d.
christians have an unusual idea of free will, haven't they?

Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on February 14, 2013 at 4:18pm

As I understand it, the definition of sin is not following God's will. 

Permalink Reply by Claire Couch on February 14, 2013 at 4:55pm

If god wills something, can it possibly NOT come to pass, if he is all powerful?  Or, if your will can be thwarted, can you really be considered all powerful?

Makes the concept of 'sin' sorta murky, if you ask me...

Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on February 14, 2013 at 6:55pm

It depends if we're talking about the Creator God, if there is such a thing, or God's love.  If sin means acting against God's love, then it makes sense. 

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on February 15, 2013 at 7:58pm

Actually, Claire, check Gen 18, where Abraham convinces god to change his criteria several times.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on February 14, 2013 at 5:47pm

It's not following God's precepts, is it not? If God wills something, a Christian would say, it cannot but come to pass. By not willing specific human choices, he gives us free will.

Of course, though, free will seems contrary to what science teaches us, which is that everything has a cause, at least on the level of reality above the quantum level. Below this level, randomness seems to prevail, but it doesn't seem a randomized behavior is any more "free" than a determined one since then one's behavior is determined by something random.

Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on February 14, 2013 at 6:52pm

If you ask me, it comes down to how you define "free will". 

Permalink Reply by Unseen on February 14, 2013 at 7:40pm

Attempted proof by redefinition. And it will likely turn out to be a rather watered down and disappointing thing once that is done.

Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on February 15, 2013 at 5:45am

Probably.  I'm not trying to prove anything though.  It's true that we're biological machines built by natural selection which can only operate in certain ways, but within that, it seems obvious that we have a certain freedom of choice at any given moment, depending on the circumstances. Of course, we can work to increase this freedom of choice by psychological, spiritual, social, material and other means. 

As far as God goes - it's like asking, is love all-powerful?  Of course not.  But if we act according to it, we win, and if we act against it, we lose.  That's how we've been programmed, and if it means that occasionally we throw ourselves on a grenade - then that's just the extreme logical conclusion of a group-oriented survival mechanism. 

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on February 15, 2013 at 7:40pm

Can will be called, free, if there's a reward/punishment system in place regarding the use of it?

Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on February 16, 2013 at 9:34am

You could say that if we're prepared to take the consequences then we're free to act.  But if we genuinely believe that we could burn in hell for all eternity, that's not much of a choice. 

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