Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Unseen on March 6, 2012 at 9:54am

Another good reason to punish "bad" behavior and reward "good" behavior is that these consequences are what change the future frequency of that behavior.

Stop bothering yourself. There's nothing to do. You see when you start talking about reasons you are talking as if there is free will, but if determinism applies, there is no freedom involved in what you decide. You will decide what is in your nature to decide. We all do what it is in our nature to do.

Permalink Reply by Michael Appleman on March 6, 2012 at 12:42pm

It is in people's nature to not want to be punished. (most anyways) Surely you don't think that being aware of the lack of free will exempt you from being punished for committing a crime?

Everything is a part of the deterministic system. Even thoughts about the system are a part of the system and they affect the system. There is nothing that is outside of the system or that is unable to influence the system. 

By the way, reason is synonymous for cause. As in cause and effect, aka determinism.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on March 6, 2012 at 12:52pm

"It is in people's nature to not want to be punished..." Well, what about masochists? What about people feeling guilty and wanting to be released from their guilt through punishment?

"Surely you don't think that being aware of the lack of free will exempt you from being punished for committing a crime?"

Whether I'm punished for "bad" deeds or praised for "good" deeds (or praised for "bad" deeds or punished for "good" ones) depends on the nature of others.

People whose nature is reasonability (in the sense of being logical) will normally be determined by their perception of what is most logical, because that is their nature. Some people resent the power of logic and do their best to be illogical, but that is because that is their nature.

Nobody can escape who they are.

Permalink Reply by Michael Appleman on March 6, 2012 at 1:12pm

Are you even reading the whole post before you reply to it?

Permalink Reply by Unseen on March 6, 2012 at 2:55pm

I believe I did. Either way, I did what was in my nature to do, as do you.

Permalink Reply by Mike Donohoe on September 24, 2012 at 10:01pm

I think it is worth considering what is meant by determinism. This may seem outrageous, but is anyone suggesting that every rain drop and gust of wind and every word I am typing now was encoded in the singularity prior to the Big Bang? Personally, if that is what anyone believes, I totally do not. I think reality is in a sense inventing itself as it goes, including in the fluctuations of our thoughts and feelings and decisions and actions. There are tendencies, just like with weather, but as with weather nothing really seems to be simple predictable causality. I believe that everything is in flux and that everything is shifting as it goes along and that nothing is set or fixed. As for chaos theory, there is a lot there to learn about. Anyway to each their own. I think I will exercise my free will and ponder whether this is worth pursuing indefinitely. =P

Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on September 24, 2012 at 11:44pm

Even if the universe is completely pre-determinable, no inside intelligence exists that could comprehend it all, much less affect it all.

I think that where this is more of an essential topic is in religious discussions. Free Will given to us by God/Whoever is the justification to punish us for ignoring Him (or the Pope, and so on). Free Will is an assertion necessary for enforcing faith/belief in others.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on September 24, 2012 at 11:55pm

I'm a determinist, not a predeterminist, predestinationist, or preordinationist.

A determinist simply maintains that everything happens for a reason, at least in the gross physical world, and that includes human behavior, and that behind everything happening in this world are the laws of physics and chemistry.

Determinism as I see it does not say that the future is set or fixed but only that whatever does happen happens for a reason having to do with natural laws. This leaves room for randomizations such as quantum events.

Randomization, however, does not salvage free will. If what I do is randomized, that doesn't seem to salvage free will any more than pure determinism does.

Permalink Reply by Doug Reardon on March 5, 2012 at 8:04pm

On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays I believe in determinism.  On Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays I believe in free will.  On Sundays I'm confused.

Permalink Reply by Zack M on March 5, 2012 at 9:10pm

Understand it simply like this:

How you make decision = How your brain works (both consciously and subconsciously) = Physical reactions in your biological framework.

This implies that, since physical reactions are all under causality, if we had a gigantic super computer system with infinite computing power, we could simulate the entire universe and thus could also determinedly simulate your life.  However, since such computing is impossible in the reality, our perceptions and thoughts are all limited to extremely superficial level.  We can't even see, for instance, very physical existence like ultraviolet rays.  Our perception thoughts are highly limited and skewed.  Therefore, such ideas like "free will" can easily slip in.  In daily life we feel like as if we make our decisions freely based on our own thoughts and perception.  But it is not true.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on March 5, 2012 at 11:45pm

Why the necessity for simulating the entire universe? In order to understand the causes leading to a drug-related murder in Detroit, do we need also to know everything that goes on in the Horsehead Nebula?

Permalink Reply by GOPI KANTA GHOSH on September 23, 2012 at 9:48am

Absolutely

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