Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Unseen on September 23, 2012 at 10:41am

That appears to be a reply to the original post. If so, which of his questions are you answering?

Permalink Reply by Dale Headley on September 23, 2012 at 2:50pm

The logical implications of both Newton’s laws and quantum theory lead to the inescapable conclusion that the universe must be deterministic.  However, such complications as chaos theory and the inability to ever be able to know what the starting conditions were mean that predictability will never be possible; no computer will ever have the power to either retrace the past or predict the future ad infinitum.  Even if, theoretically, an algorithm could be created that could follow the progress (or regress) of time, it would require knowledge of the starting conditions of the universe (“The Big Bang”), which is impossible.  Besides, chaos theory would throw such a monkey wrench into the machinery along the way that prediction would be a fool’s errand.  

It follows, then, that, since the full sequence of events throughout time can’t be followed, the theory is unfalsifiable. That being the case, determinism can’t really be considered a scientific theory - only a philosophical hypothesis that can never be either confirmed or disproved.  For that matter, even hypothesizing would be a fruitless endeavor.  The best we can do is conjecture and go on about our business.

The standard contrasting paradigm to determinism is free will.  But it, too, runs into a theoretical conundrum.  If all the theories of mathematicians and physicists are true from the first to last collision between atoms from the beginning to the end of time, the universe must be considered deterministic, which means that free will cannot exist.  

That being said, it would be the height of foolishness for human beings to throw up their hands, surrender to the fates, whether mechanistic or Calvinistic, and never get out of bed.  Whether or not free will exists, we must live our lives as if it does, since it will never be possible to either intuit or control the deterministic course of universal time.  To attempt to do so would be a prime example of reducto ad absurdum. 

There is a philosophical escape clause, however.  If one follows the idea of determinism to its logical limits, it could be said that even our thoughts and emotions are pre-determined.  If that’s the case, why worry?  Free will, even if it is an illusion, works just fine.  And even if it doesn’t, there’s not a damn thing we can do about it if the universe is purely deterministic.  The question is existentially moot.

My advice?  Accept the notion that determinism is real, then forget about it and let your free will take you where it will.  

Permalink Reply by Unseen on September 23, 2012 at 4:04pm

I think free will is one of those things people get obsessed with. As you seem to be saying, however, accept determinism and get over it. You can't change it so live with it (you really have no choice...literally).

I've been a determinist for a long time, but I still open the refrigerator and make a choice between Coke and iced tea even though the decision was made in my unconscious brain a few microseconds before I was aware of it. I feel it's a conscious choice though intellectually I recognize it can't be.

The more serious problem, of course, comes when you consider holding people responsible for their acts. Of course we will, and we'll feel good about it and we'll feel that it's necessary. However, add in determinism and it all seems rather pointless and unnecessary. Everyone does what they do because of who they are. Yes, they have choices before them but they can't really choose what to choose. That is governed by the laws of the universe where there are no miracles.

Permalink Reply by James Cox on September 24, 2012 at 1:35am

I just figure that I am as free as I mosty need to be. Having the occasional quantum event in my head that flips a bit, or more, just keeps it interesting.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on September 24, 2012 at 8:49am

Interesting isn't the same as being free.

Permalink Reply by Gregg R Thomas on September 24, 2012 at 9:38am

Hey Unseen is your real name Sam Harris?

Is the Quantum world deterministic?

Doesn't your world rest on the foundation of the Quantum?

How can it therefore be deterministic?

Permalink Reply by Unseen on September 24, 2012 at 12:52pm

Why would you think my name is Sam Harris?

Who knows if the quantum world is deterministic. I'm guessing it is, but that we'll never (at least in any near term) know how it works, so we deal with it statistically. And if it's deterministic, it will not be using Newton's of Einstein's mechanics.

I'm not sure the word "foundation" applies. It doesn't matter. Once an event in the quantum world has an impact on the gross world we live in, it may have an impact. It may randomize the determinism but determinism is determinism is determinism. The random change in no way salvages free will.

If this is a discussion of free will, you need to accept that, unless there is a spirit world including invisible, intangible, ineffable souls that make things happen through little miracles suspending determinism, then there is nothing vaguely resembling free will.

Free will is just a self-delusion like (and about as real as) deja vu.

Permalink Reply by Gregg R Thomas on September 25, 2012 at 11:00am

Unseen,

The Sam Harris name association has to do with his book "Free Will" in which he takes the deterministic viewpoint, sorry for the obscure reference.

As I sit here and ponder this conflict between Determinism and Freewillism (new word for the sake of argument) I see the strident position of both as 'cart before horse' myopic thinking. Neither is a fully developed theory testable and falsifiable by peer review leaving us with a clear consensus of opinion (ie. a scientific certainty (do we need to discuss why a scientific certainty isn't 100 percent certain?))

The Determinist must set aside the problems of probability the Quantum presents and the complexity of the brain/mind connection and the resulting consequence of a self aware consciousness, to feel confident in his approach.

The Freewillist (another new word) must make similar concessions.

Neither position makes sound enough arguments to convince me either position has enough understanding to be sided with.

The Determinist has himself wedged firmly between the atom and the biological brain, while the Freewillist considers the subatomic and the super complexity of the human mind while discounting the Determinist's position.

For myself I stay above the fray and try to comprehend the larger picture, where I think most likely the answer is to be found.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on September 25, 2012 at 6:02pm

As I sit here and ponder this conflict between Determinism and Freewillism (new word for the sake of argument) I see the strident position of both as 'cart before horse' myopic thinking. Neither is a fully developed theory testable and falsifiable by peer review leaving us with a clear consensus of opinion.

Well, actually, determinism isn't a theory at all. It's a necessary presupposition. Why? Because the theory that random/miraculous events happen at all, means you can toss natural law out the window. I'm reminded of when Stephen Hawking theorized that matter going into a black hole could be lost forever. This idea, which seems rather inocuous to the average person, actually threw physics and cosmology into turmoil, because if that was true, then there could be no such thing as the natural laws of physics. How can you predict anything when you have to factor in that natural physical law could just go out the window at any moment?

The Determinist must set aside the problems of probability the Quantum presents and the complexity of the brain/mind connection and the resulting consequence of a self aware consciousness, to feel confident in his approach.

The problems the quantum level poses are not problems for determinism. The borderline between quantum theory and the gross world encompassing molecules and larger entities like planets, stars, galaxies, and the universe itself seems to be absolutely discrete. As strange as it may seem, even extreme events on the quantum level raise no conundrums on the Newtonian/Einsteinian level. Take a nuclear explosion, for example. That's a very extreme event on the quantum level, but it raises no problematic questions in the world of everyday life forcing us to question the deterministic nature of physical law.

Likewise, there is no "problem" when it comes to self-awareness. That is simply one of the things our brain does, and the brain is basically an organic electrochemical machine.

I have asked a simple question several times in the course of discussing determinism. I'm not sure if I've asked it of you, so either you're reading this question the first time or you've avoided answering it because the answer doesn't aid your point of view much.

The question is this: WHAT IS FREE WILL ANYWAY? Do you have a definition of it that doesn't imply either a spiritual plane of existence where spirits or souls have a way of making things happen in the physical world? If there is such a world, it must be subject to its own laws just like the physical world is. What are those laws? Or does your definition imply that miraculous events occur all the time in which the laws of physics are set aside. If so, then these miracles must occur constantly, because no one I know who believes in free will thinks it's the exception, they think it's the rule at almost all times.

Permalink Reply by James Cox on September 24, 2012 at 1:49am

Can a machine ever dream that it is 'free'?

Does this thought generate the needed exception to determinism?

Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on September 25, 2012 at 1:01pm

Hmm. Like poetic license.

  I think I am free,

  and so I must be.

Permalink Reply by Mike Donohoe on September 24, 2012 at 10:27pm

You are free to adhere to your perceptions and beliefs. Or perhaps you have no freedom to do anything else? One book that I highly recommend is Chaos by James Gleick. In the workings of nature there are things to understand such as extreme sensitivity to initial conditions, and nonlinear order that I think seriously compromise any notion of a cut and dried pre-programmed universe. It applies to how things progress and form, from snowflakes to organisms in and out of the womb and, I believe, to processes of consciousness. I think that the closest you can ever come is to make good guesses at the general thrust of certain things because it is not all mapped out in one precise chain of events. There are always possibilities and variations. Good luck to you all. lol.

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