Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Isaac on December 1, 2010 at 5:36pm

So basically humans are physical and are essentially machines that are extremely complex. In simple scenarios, physical actions are always caused by some stimulus, even if the result is unpredictable. Hell, the same goes for complex systems. Humans are complex systems of molecules. If free will exists, then at what point are the molecules that make up our brain able to choose what to do/what to react with in a complex organized manner? Determinism makes the most sense to me when thinking about the physical interactions occurring withing the brain that cause consciousness.

Permalink Reply by Mike Donohoe on September 23, 2012 at 11:56am

Hi, Isaac. I believe that we are indeed complex systems. Chaos theory includes the element of infinite variability. That's how every snowflake and fingerprint can be unique. So is the occurrence of every human individual, including indistinguishable twins or conceivably clones. I don't believe that any 2 clouds or blades of grass or goldfish or fire ants or sparrows are actually identical either. Neither are any 2 examples of things off an assembly line, from seemingly identical cars to T-shirts to soft drink cups to computers. I think each passing second, day, decade and century is a unique event as well. A tree is a tree and a dog is a dog and a person is a person. We may lump things together in our perception, but infinite variability permeates all, everything in flux, and we are of such a degree of complexity, so far beyond predictable wind up toys, that people always have the potential to approach anything from an innumerable array of variables. Within certain very wide and complex parameters, I think that is free will. I think the notion of quantifying a completely predictable clockwork reality is delusion born of arrogance.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on September 23, 2012 at 3:41pm

No two pieces of popcorn are alike is what I always like to say.

Anyway, your argument amounts to basically this: the complexity of things prevents us from analyzing and understanding the determinism which is there, and that this is where free will hides. In our ignorance. But in the gross everyday (non quantum) world, as far as we know, every process we can analyze reveals deterministic physical laws. The complexity of analyzing some things in no way implies "freedom" elsewhere.

We would never make a claim that a non-human process is somehow exempt from known physical laws simply due to the difficulty of analysis. The introduction of a human mind doesn't really change things so that free will magically appears.

The biggest problem with free will is that it's a muddy concept to start with. If you try to work up any kind of rigorous definition of it, I'm pretty sure you'll find the concept evaporating into meaninglessness.

Permalink Reply by Mike Donohoe on September 24, 2012 at 5:31pm

Valid point. I thought about what I had said there later and felt that I did not follow through with it enough, applying those general concepts in nature to human nature. Doing so may still not make a difference to you. It sounds kind of like you are saying that if we are a product of nature, a result of the Big Bang and of evolution, then all that we are and experience is kind of a grandiose parlor trick. That despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage. My feeling is that a deterministic perception might liken a person to a rat in a maze, actually. There is one set of travel and twists and turns that will lead the rat to, for example, a food reward. I feel like, by comparison, the maze a human consciousness occupies is one with countless possible goals and possible routes beyond number as well. In addition I think that these are always varying at least to some degree from one instant to the next. I feel as though to the extent that we consciously endeavor to shape the course ahead, to the extent that we consciously do so as individuals, that we do not follow a simple preordained course. So to you that may still mean that we are rats in mazes. I feel like it has an element of autonomy and self determination though. Even the rat in the simple maze is vastly more complex and in flux than the fairly inviolable circumstances set before it, but the rat itself on its own has, I think, a great measure of autonomy as well.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on September 24, 2012 at 5:55pm

I'm a determinist. I don't tout predetermination, preordination, or anything preceded with "pre." The future hasn't happened yet. As others have pointed out, quantum events might interrupt deterministic chains. But the response to such an interruption would be determined by Newtonian/Einsteinian physical laws, and doesn't in any way salvage free will.

The words "parlor trick" seems to imply a magician...God? I often describe God as a magical sorcerer, but only to make fun of the concept of God.

Citing complexity doesn't help the argument for free will. Any complex situation can, in principle, be analyzed down to simple components. Of course, it's difficult or impossible to do such an analysis, but even if we could, it would just make clear the determinism of nature.

Science—actual science by scientists—has demonstrated that choice are made in the preconscious mind, not in the conscious mind. That alone should tell you that there is no free will because no conscious thought or deliberation is involved. You aren't free because the conscious "you" has to live with decisions made unconsciously.

Permalink Reply by Isaac on September 23, 2012 at 10:44pm

@Mike Donohoe

Man it's been forever since I've posted here. My views on free will have somewhat refined since. So, in my previous post I could have been a lot clearer, but what I was alluding to was this: Are our decisions, actions, thoughts, etc... controlled by our conscious will or are they fundamentally controlled by the laws of nature and out of our conscious control? If it's the latter, then I don't think that one can define free will in any meaningful way. From what I've read, the latter seems far more likely.

Also, chaos theory is a mathematics. While it has applications in science, mathematics alone does not describe reality. Now, quantum mechanics suggests that on a fundamental level, the universe is not deterministic. That still does not leave room for free will because an object whose motions are fundamentally random does not have any conscious say as to what it does, which is why I don't buy the notion that free will is hidden in random fluctuations of nature.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on September 23, 2012 at 11:35pm

Even if, on the quantum level, events are not deterministic, if a quantum event has an effect on the gross Newtonian/Einsteinian level, that effect enters a deterministic world.

The biggest problem with the idea of free will though is this: what in the world does "will" mean? Probably the most potent meaning is embodied in movies like Poltergeist, Firestarter, or Carrie, where someone can make something happen remotely due to the strength of their thoughts or intentions.

We also use the word "will" in "will power," but there it's just a synonym for stick-to-it-iveness, grit, or determination. But that isn't what we mean by the "will" in "free will," either.

People are set on defending free will, a concept in search of a meaning.

Permalink Reply by Mike Donohoe on September 24, 2012 at 5:38pm

Hello, Isaac. Chaos is mathematical, yes. I think of many of its implications, though. I feel as though in western culture a linear perception is deeply engrained in us while some aspects of chaos theory reveal some very different aspects to it all. And for myself I do feel that an element of randomness allows beings like us, if we are to be considered machines, to be spontaneous, which is where I think free will might be a real thing. If we were linear programmed machines we would have very limited courses. True and false, yes and no, left and right. As extremely complex "machines" imbued with random elements I feel that we can choose to lash out in any conceivable direction. I am not sure if that translates for you or if it eludes to how free will becomes possible but maybe it at least better shows you my line of thought on it.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on September 24, 2012 at 6:12pm

All chaos theory means is that a seemingly innocuous action in one place can set off a chain of events with a seemingly (or measurably) greater consequence, in at least temporary apparent conflict with the notion that entropy rules the universe. But entropy is a global concept having no implications for local interactions. It's a trend.

And once again I remind you: randomness doesn't give us free will any more than determinism does. For "will" to have meaning, you need to believe in spiritual entities (souls) having miraculous powers to override the laws that govern everything else. If you believe the world is material in nature, not spiritual, then you're kind of stuck with physical laws.

Permalink Reply by James Cox on September 24, 2012 at 10:29pm

I guess, I have a concern with the difference between 'what we think' and 'what is'. If what we 'think' is in one to one relationship with 'what is', I could understand a claim to certainty, but it seems clear that we do not. So I hold the door open to 'free will', and even the existence of some transendental conscience, but I could be just waiting for a toe to cut off sometime during the wait...LOL

Permalink Reply by Unseen on September 24, 2012 at 11:56pm

Okay, define "will."

Permalink Reply by Isaac on September 24, 2012 at 11:22pm

@ Mike

A few questions. What the hell is a linear perception? Given that you are using chaos theory as something different than something linear, which is somewhat true since chaos theory studies nonlinear differential equations, are you using the term linear to mean the mathematical definition? If not, then might you be equivocating?

Random actions are not governed by any will, therefore free will cannot come out of randomness.

"If we were linear programmed machines we would have very limited courses. True and false, yes and no, left and right."

I'm not sure that's what linear programming means. Also, computer programs with simple instructions and no random variables can lead to complex and beautiful patterns. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_cellular_automaton

"I am not sure if that translates for you or if it eludes to how free will becomes possible but maybe it at least better shows you my line of thought on it."

I see what you are eluding at, but random and unpredictable actions don't correspond to acts of free will since there is no will governing randomness.

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