It has long been politically correct to state that it's "not the size but the motion" that counts. Women have so long been under the thumb of religion and patriarchy and most women have learned that lying to "your man" is much more fruitful/profitable than denigrating him because of his lack of penis volume. And what good would bitching about penis size do anyway, it's not like a guy can change it. It is a done deal and it's simply not worth bitching about it once in a couple context.
However, that being said, that point of view in no way dictates that biologically speaking, the penis size is unimportant. The vagina is an elastic structure and responds differently to various shapes and volumes. In addition, most studies indicate that the the penis size to total body ratio is a fairly good indicator of female sexual selection in nature. And Homo sapiens males are very well endowed indeed in this regard, favoring a view that in Homo sapiens females do exercise choice (evolutionary speaking).
However, as in the another post on this forum regarding Homo sapiens brains getting smaller since agriculture, the fact that Homo sapiens have migrated to non tropical climes, began wearing clothes all the time and the advent of religion, female choice has been near totally emasculated. 20,000 years is long enough to create reproductive bias dimishing the value of a large penis. But this bias does not imply necessarily that the female vagina has had time to 'adapt' to lesser selection.
The following graph, in parallel with Adriana's comment on this board agrees that women's response to penis size is variable. It also demonstrates that "bigger" is not "better" in the absolute sense. But what it does support is that size is relevant. The important number to consider is that accross the board, beyond races and nationalities and age, the average male is between 5.5" and 6" in length erect. So when women are asked if they 'fake orgasm' and stats reveal that a whopping 50% of females have faked it and when we look at where that 'average' size fits on this graph, we can guess at the 'faking it' motivations. Our size range is simply incompatible. As for girth, I think we can simply say that if your fingers touch when holding the penis in your hand, it is on the narrow side. A mere little can of Redbull is 7" in circumference, and a regular soda can is close to 8".
"So that's what an uncircumcised penis looks like!" I felt like a bit of an idiot."
I had that very moment in my mid twenties, on a beach by a lake with a bunch of naked people lounging after a hard day of treeplanting. I found it very hard not to stare as it seemed so odd to me. I've read a lot of people mentioning that an intact penis "appears" smaller, I guess because of the narrowed tip. Could it be that the optical illusion of a larger penis was yet another contributing factor in the beginnings of circumcision's popularity? Now years later, I've become accustomed to intact foreskins, and now look upon a cut foreskin as the oddity. Circumcision also creates the illusion of constant readiness, whereas an intact foreskin hides the glans until the appropriate time.
Tribal society males have long been using other various devices and modifications to make phalluses look larger and/or erect.
There are very few studied cases of recent evolution in humans. As a lactose intolerant person, I've been quite interested in the evolution of lactose tolerance among different peoples spontaneously. Some scientists see it as a rare example of "adaptation" vs random evolutionary fitness.
I think if universities were to invest additional effort into investigating the evolution of male genitalia, we'd see some interesting surprises. The problem really is that there are so few serious studies.
What kind of evidence might there be? Can't be much fossil evidence, other than frozen. Which would have to be thawed and attached to some kind of stimulator simulator.
Young Frankenstein? (So Mel Brooks was ahead of his time.)
Sorry. It's hard difficult to be too serious.
Haha good point. But still it brings into question; did women prefer smaller penises in the ancient world?
I see the OPs argument as being flawed and trying to bring evolution into the argument shows they have not studied enough into this...
So what kind of first-hand facts or opinion did women (or matriarchal society) add to the bible or other "documentation", especially wrt to preferences of penis size?
I'd rather say that the case isn't clear yet, in terms of evidence. So the best information to go with seems to be common sense, and documented opinions of personal experience.
As I was replying to Adam. You're welcome ;)
Although I don't feel I know enough about this topic on a historic or evolutionary level, I have always had a scientific curiosity about this issue.
From personal experience, I don't think that the size of a man has a strong (I won't say any) correlation to penis size. One of my ex boyfriends is 5ft6" and I can confidently say he falls within the A category on the graph. He was also sexually adventurous (to a point), making for a highly enjoyable sexual partner. I have also been with much taller men who have not "measured up." Sexual repression versus sexual adventurousness has a lot to do with the level of sexual satisfaction achieved though, but I realise that isn't the issue here.
Ultimately, size for me is definitely something that matters, but it is not the only factor I look at. Ability, skill, generosity, and an experimental or explorative personality all play major roles in selecting the ideal sexual partner.
What T A A started the original post with really rang true for me. I have often felt actively disappointed that there is no way for a woman to know the size of a man's penis or sexual skill he possesses before she sleeps with him (excluding rare instances of hearsay). Physical intimacy is an important part of a relationship for me, but it's unrealistic and unsafe to jump from partner to partner just to find the ideal one. The societally accepted norm of dating someone for a prolonged time before sleeping with them is often detrimental to a relationship if the sex is sub-par, for both parties, hence my adage about no-sex-before-marriage: you have to test-drive the car before you buy it. But the alternative (of sleeping with each other virtually on sight) is not ideal either.
Although a man cannot determine a woman's skill in the bedroom simply from looking at her, he can still see basic physical characteristics like figure, breasts etc. I've never heard complaints about a woman's vagina being too small or too big, although I have heard about more grey-area issues, if you will, such as an elongated clitoris or extended/distended labia.
disappointed that there is no way for a woman to know the size of a man's penis [...]
I truly started considering penis size to be an aphrodisiac during the years I spent working in the Caribbean. The predominant dance style, in Trinidad for example, where the man stays behind the woman and is ONLY allowed to make hip contact (no smothering, no holding, no groping) is specifically designed for this purpose. The dance floor is a constant source of competition where women lead and men must follow each move, every gyration, every crazy rhythm... without pressing into the woman, simply keeping a delicate but constant contact, throughout the dance. And when the man loses control, he must walk away, unless they are already 'coupled'. It is quite normal to dance with 2 different guys in any given song. There are also stage versions of this fun little competition, and were not the men so dark we'd see them blush :) On stage, the point is to resist the erection, to prove that the man can withstand the rush.... it's a fun game :)
There have been innumerable quality studies demonstrating that a man's 'general size' has no relation to the size of the genitals. So that is not a consideration in this discussion. There is still debate however on the distinctions between flaccid/erect size. Most studies demonstrate that erect size is not proportional to flaccid size. And my experience concurs: I once had a boyfriend who was 3-4" flaccid, and zero inches in a cold lake. But his erection was double his flaccid size. However, if one started at 6" and were to double also, that would be scary!
One can only consider comparing the impact of genital size when we make sure to remove other variables, such as sexual repression, attraction, etc. It's an "all other variables factored out" discussion.
[...] I've never heard complaints about a woman's vagina being too small or too big [...]
I've definitely heard the "too big" complaint, especially for women after birth. It is even becoming a popular cosmetic surgery where women have their vagina 'refurbished', in addition to labial 'refurbishing', and hymen manufacturing, and anal bleaching (boy what porn makes normal women do!). On the other hand, a tight fight is generally considered aphrodisiac, so no it would not generally be the source of complaints.