You've all heard the claim that we aren't really atheists, we are just mad at god. (Or you will see such things as "so and so claims to be an atheist.")
Today, though I saw an argument in chat with a theist, and someone else's account of an argument they had out in public, and I stopped to wonder if maybe we aren't sometimes encouraging this line of bullshit, albeit unwittingly.
What happened in both cases was the atheist began recounting all the sorts of horrible things Yahweh is portrayed as doing or believing or commanding. In one case, I saw the atheist say "why should I love god when he won't love me back?"
The problem with this sort of thing is we usually don't take care to phrase our remarks to make it clear that god is a character of fiction. When discussing the misdeeds of Yahweh we tend to fall back on a convention we use when we talk about a fictional character in a book. We refer to him by name and talk as if the guy was real and the book was not fiction, for example, "In George Orwell's 1984, Winston Smith was arrested for thoughtcrime," not, "In George Orwell's 1984, the character Winston Smith..."
We know what we mean, because we both know Winston Smith (or god) is fictitious. But they don't know god is fictitious.
Talking this way with someone who believes the fictional character is real might cause him not to understand you are just following the convention. Your phrasing sounds to him like you accept god as real, he "knows" god is real, so he assumes at some level you think god is real.
What I am suggesting here is that you ever want to bring up how nasty this being is, you make it clear that you don't think he exists, make sure you put "fictitious" (or equivalent) in every other sentence at least, and not let them think for a minute that you assume the existence of god.
Yes I know that when you just said you were an atheist this shouldn't be necessary, but obviously many of these people don't understand atheism in their guts, so don't let their paradigm default you into a "believer but mad at god" box.
@Suzann here it is another translation to the same vers :
34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.
RE: "34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other"
You see Lonely, we here simply do not believe that, 1) there IS an Allah, and 2) that men are superior to women. What do you say to a woman who says, "I don't WANT to be protected or maintained - I want to be free to choose whatever lifestyle I please, and to be respected for my choices and abilities!"?
@the lonely - At what age is one when they start saying 'Allah subhanahu wa taala.'
@Suzanne i think when someone is able to say it .that's the age,
@the lonely -
Are you absolutely sure you are not christian? This is the sort of rubbish xians go on with. They also cherry pick.
So I will ask again what do YOU think about this quote from your koran and from your allah
4.34 Men are in charge of women, because allah hath made the one of the to excel the other, and because they spend of their property for the support of women. So good women are obedient, guarding in secret that which allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge.
This is all about the control of men over women, from your allah, from your koran.
What does this mean - guarding in secret that which allah hath guarded
And what do you think of mohammed choosing a child at the age of six to marry at the age of nine
The righteous women are devoutly obedient to allah and to their husband.
I just can't put into words what I think about, just this one line.
Do you lonely go along with this - and if you have any doubt why anybody from a civilized country is appalled, horrified, mortified that this is being taught to children.
The resultant effect, boys become arrogant, the girls become subservient.
All over the muslim countries, it is coming to bite the men in the bum. Repress any part of society, and they will retaliate. The women who come under the gross koran rule are fighting back.
DO YOU GO ALONG WITH THIS RULE?
Also, keep in mind, no allah, therefore man made evil, man made rules for inadequate males to control women, and they end up in fear. Just fabulous.
That's easy for YOU to say --!
sorry she is not obliged to stay with him,typing mistake.
The Quran cited before this :that man and women are equal, this versus(you mentioned) to put more obligations on man,to protect women,you ask me why ? we are talking here about a society used to treat women badly of course by man,so to those man and for that bad behavior ,this versus you mentioned is for,is it privelges or more obligations?a women came to Muhamed and told him that her husband slapped her so he said you should slapped him in return,but Quran did not accept his way of resolving the issue and he mentioned to him ‘do not haste…..or hurry until the answer comes through Quran.what is mentioned is like this: to advise them first as husband and wife,and usually this is more enough to settle the problem,if not you don’t sleep with them and this is a punishment for man than women (I am a man and I can not stay away from my wife),here it’s to think both of you about the situation,if it’s not solved so, not to scourge as you translated but” hit “ not for torture but for descpline and we all know that hitting women it means one thing is she will hate you for ever.in that case women should not wait until the husband hit her she can ask for arbitration or a separation(and she can do this from the biggining) if he treats her as unequal to human being, and unfair .by the way hitting women in charia law is enough reason for the women to ask for devorce,and if she can not prove this as this happened in closedoors ,so she is obliged to stay with him and she wait 4 moths than she renew her case at that time judge should separate between them.
Now this is what is said in this versus and it dose not mean that I can not set limits for myself me and my wife, hitting and slapping it is never been an ideal way of communication between us,by the way Muhamed never hit his wives and they said this and we believe in what they said.
About he married a nine years girl,it’s not true he marry her 18 years old but many false things can spread without scrutiny .never take knowldge from "people"but do research if you want.thank you and with all respect,a women is mother how can hit mother.
RE: "a women is mother how can hit mother."
How many mothers were killed in all of the Al Qaeda attacks? And children?
Ah, my dear lonely, that is the thing that Atheists do - ad nausem - all the time.
Aisha was the daughter of Muhammad's close friend Abu Bakr. She was initially betrothed to Jubayr ibn Mut'im.
Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad. Traditional sources state that she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18: Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but Aisha is lawful for me to marry."
Disgraceful - this is the man you follow - a dirty old man who had as many wives and sex with as many women and children as he had energy for.
Ah, and that is how power and fear is used.
No allah, mohammed a predator, your koran written by primitive, testosterone driven males.
ok Suzann,i never tell lies,and never treat people as this is far to find the truth,so be patiant with me,i am gonna show you how impossible by dates but i am not very familiar with islamic terms in English i am gonna get help from google translation about the terms:how Aicha was not married at the age of 9:
all the history ressources says that asmaa her sister is older than Aicha by 10 years and asmaa was born before 27 years of the migration to the city ,the prophetic mission was in 610 so asmaa age at that time is 14 years and we know that Asmaa older than Aich by 10 years so Aicha age was 4 years at the prophetic mission it means she was born in 606 .the dat of her marrige was after 10 years the prophetic mission so 4y+10y=14y (620)and we know that muhamed has started his real marriage life with her after 3 years and a few months(i couldn't find the term in english which in Arabic means sleep with her) a few months it means the endding of the first year and the biggining of the second year of the migration to the city624 so by simple addition we get:14+3+1=18,now all what albukhary said is nonsense with dates and history and also who are copying from him,i don't blame one but ignorance and poeple should say if they know or the should shut up.
now another way how to calculate aicha age .we know all the history resources mentioned this without any single deffrence that Asmaa was died after a very famouse event which is the death of her son Abdullah ibn azzubair happened the year 73 after the migration to the city and she died at age 100 so 100-73=27 her age at the migration and we know that she was older than Aicha by 10 years so 27-10=17 the Aicha age at the migration and Muhamed started his marriage life with her the end of the first year of the migration so 17+1=18 years these are to way to calculate her age.I HOPE THAT I GET TO THE POINT AND ALL MY EFFORT WOULDN'T VAIN BY MY WRITTING.THANK YOU
I don't think, in any way, you are lying. What you are is brainwashed, and from a very early age. The book you follow is contradictory. I commend you for sticking with this - you are not going to change your mind, nor am I, but it is a good exercise for you - your English will improve - so, good for you.
I don't need any book on morals and ethics written by men, for men 1,400 years ago.
All the history resources says that Asmaa her sister is older than Aicha by 10 years.
I am just researching, - so who or what is Sahih Bukhari, cause that is just one place where I am getting this bit of information from. I have read it many times, aicha was picked at six and married at nine - so from my information, who has worked the time line out. Is this just twisting information to support your paradigm. Which number wife was aicha.
“Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed [alone] for two years or so. He married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.” - http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
I don't know what age she was, in depends on what one reads, and which version one wants to trust - so, lets just say fourteen, fifteen, sixteen - what age was mohammed when he married this girl?
As does xians, contradictory passages right through both books - you cherry pick - Some scholars debate the validity of the collection of the Qur'an as a whole. It is questioned as to whether the Qur’an ever existed in its entirety during Muhammad’s or Uthman’s time - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran
The koran 'revelation' was in 610 AD - how many authors, how many interpretation of this book have there been. Muslims, as do xians, have flying angels, miracles. Imagination is terrific, we would not have moved forward as a species without imagination. But to base one's life on a book written over 1,400 years ago, with everybody dabbling and changing words and meaning - it is called editing and personal interpretations of what somebody else has said. That is called Chinese whispers. The need to go to a book to find out how one should behave. how people should odr should not be treated is really sad. Stuff was written down, it was all oral originally, so up comes voices in mohammed's head, and it was only when mohammed dies, was the koran lumped together. Mohammed was just justifying his power. How many people, do you think, have heard the word of god, in their head, cause your particular god never showed up. Not good enough for people to live their life according to a charlatan. Even during this time, there were many different versions, changes here and there to suit, too many interpretations, too many people involved with the writing
There is another bloke called Marshall Summers - look him up. He also had voices in his head - it is always about fear coupled with power. Mohammed could get as many females as he wanted, why, through fear, by saying he heard the words of god.
Muslims and especially mohammed simply thought it was a good idea to pinch, steal, from all the other charlatans before him. How many supposed gods came before him. How many religions today, say they are the only true religion?
I have asked you before - what does this mean - Guarding in secret that which allah hath guarded.
No god, no allah, no angels, but imagination.