You've all heard the claim that we aren't really atheists, we are just mad at god. (Or you will see such things as "so and so claims to be an atheist.")
Today, though I saw an argument in chat with a theist, and someone else's account of an argument they had out in public, and I stopped to wonder if maybe we aren't sometimes encouraging this line of bullshit, albeit unwittingly.
What happened in both cases was the atheist began recounting all the sorts of horrible things Yahweh is portrayed as doing or believing or commanding. In one case, I saw the atheist say "why should I love god when he won't love me back?"
The problem with this sort of thing is we usually don't take care to phrase our remarks to make it clear that god is a character of fiction. When discussing the misdeeds of Yahweh we tend to fall back on a convention we use when we talk about a fictional character in a book. We refer to him by name and talk as if the guy was real and the book was not fiction, for example, "In George Orwell's 1984, Winston Smith was arrested for thoughtcrime," not, "In George Orwell's 1984, the character Winston Smith..."
We know what we mean, because we both know Winston Smith (or god) is fictitious. But they don't know god is fictitious.
Talking this way with someone who believes the fictional character is real might cause him not to understand you are just following the convention. Your phrasing sounds to him like you accept god as real, he "knows" god is real, so he assumes at some level you think god is real.
What I am suggesting here is that you ever want to bring up how nasty this being is, you make it clear that you don't think he exists, make sure you put "fictitious" (or equivalent) in every other sentence at least, and not let them think for a minute that you assume the existence of god.
Yes I know that when you just said you were an atheist this shouldn't be necessary, but obviously many of these people don't understand atheism in their guts, so don't let their paradigm default you into a "believer but mad at god" box.
no one can prove that what it is written in all the 3 holy books are from god
This is very true, and I'm glad that you can say it sincerely. Requiring proof before declaring that something is true is an encouraging sign of humility (and not arrogance), and intelligence.
Meanwhile, this truthful statement alone seems enough to prove to me that at least most scripture (2/3?) is invented by mankind. I won't ask you again to declare which 1/3 you're certain is true.
Since when has truth been arrogance - Judaic, christian bible and koran - all copied and plagiarized, by uneducated men.
Children believe whatever their parents tell them - that is just what kids do - they learn from their parents - indoctrination and brainwashing from a very early age, that is how everybody works, that is how every culture works. If I had been born in India, I would now be wearing fabulous clothes , and most probably following Hinduism, or maybe Sikhism, and then again there is Buddhism - kids take on the religion of where they are born, and what their parents teach them.
He wasn't invented 'one day' it took a few generations to get their story straight, pinching stories that had been made up earlier - and they were interesting stories, but still myth. Myth built upon myth - change a few things here and there, but all myth - remembering these were primitive times. But today it is all about power - the hierarchy of man in a church or religion - especially muslims and xians.
Lots of money in xian churches, with accompanied charlatans -with muslims it is power of immans over their flock, the ability to brain wash from a very early age - power and money.
Do girls also say this?
So from the age of three or four, they are getting the gist of what people are saying all the time, and copying. That is how children learn, and in the case of any religion, but particularly yours, it is brainwashing from a very early age. It is rote and robotic.
@thelonely - Very sad is the indoctrination and brainwashing of religion and the rote learning of the koran. Of course their are good muslims around - so why are they not shouting about the mistreatment of their women in Islam's name.
The thing that muslims in islamic countries don't realize is that if they try and control any section of society, in this case women, they will come back to bite you. Muslim women in these oppressive countries are getting stronger, because of communication and iphones. The light and Youtube is shining on them, and the bad is outweighing the good at this stage :(
Do you think Male and Female should be separated in mosques. If so, why?
No they shouldn't and they were not before,most of treatment concerning women is more culture than religion,the religion itself go far and diffrent to how treat their women and themselves ,.Changing people beleive is hard and non stopping work,it needs time and faith,and good example.
maybe one day the light will shine but it needs dark to beleive in it,life is light and dark and what is important where we stand?
RE: "maybe one day the light will shine but it needs dark to beleive in it,life is light and dark and what is important where we stand?"
Sorry Lonely, but I don't understand ANY of that statement. "it needs dark to believe in it"? What does that mean?
"life is light and dark and what is important where we stand?" -- that's not really clear either, but "what is important where we stand," is that women be treated as human beings - as equal human beings - once that is accomplished, I've no doubt that others will be far more interested in hearing about a religion that made women equal, rather than one that made them subservient.
But in any case, don't expect belief without proof.
yes they should be treated equal,no one say they are subservient,who is accused in our society is man because he is selfish and immoral about how dealing with female i think women are doing their best to gain the battle,by being more educated and stopping feeding their boys the wrong behavior towards their sisters ,(you ARE a BOY).about dark and light i think is simple fact that all the TIME there is good and bad,again if you stand with good is good for you,may your univers is not like mine,so tell me if is all GOOD
@thelonely - So, just how would you interpret this - why are women talked about in this way AT ALL. That is not to say that there ae not manipulating, cheating, nagging women. But lumping all women together is heinous. Do you want me to go down a list of what men do???? There are good men, there are good women - but there are also bad women and bad men. Your koran should not say anything about men being superior in any way - this is where muslims fall down in western countries, and hear the plight, and see the videos - subjugation of women, because there is so much proof of this and it is in the koran.
This is just one verse -
4:34 "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them."
What do you think of mohammed marrying a nne year old girl.
If I understand what you're saying Lonely, you're saying that no, you society isn't perfect, but is mine?
If that's what you're saying, then no, my society is certainly not perfect, but there are many of us who do many things to try to improve it. Atheists are better equipped to see the seriousness of problems, because we have no reason to believe things are the way they are because it is god's will, or to believe that goc will come along and fix things for us.
Are women allowed to drive cars in your country? To go out into the city without being accompanied by a male? If not, what have you done to help change that?
@Suzann here it is another translation to the same vers :
34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.