You've all heard the claim that we aren't really atheists, we are just mad at god. (Or you will see such things as "so and so claims to be an atheist.")
Today, though I saw an argument in chat with a theist, and someone else's account of an argument they had out in public, and I stopped to wonder if maybe we aren't sometimes encouraging this line of bullshit, albeit unwittingly.
What happened in both cases was the atheist began recounting all the sorts of horrible things Yahweh is portrayed as doing or believing or commanding. In one case, I saw the atheist say "why should I love god when he won't love me back?"
The problem with this sort of thing is we usually don't take care to phrase our remarks to make it clear that god is a character of fiction. When discussing the misdeeds of Yahweh we tend to fall back on a convention we use when we talk about a fictional character in a book. We refer to him by name and talk as if the guy was real and the book was not fiction, for example, "In George Orwell's 1984, Winston Smith was arrested for thoughtcrime," not, "In George Orwell's 1984, the character Winston Smith..."
We know what we mean, because we both know Winston Smith (or god) is fictitious. But they don't know god is fictitious.
Talking this way with someone who believes the fictional character is real might cause him not to understand you are just following the convention. Your phrasing sounds to him like you accept god as real, he "knows" god is real, so he assumes at some level you think god is real.
What I am suggesting here is that you ever want to bring up how nasty this being is, you make it clear that you don't think he exists, make sure you put "fictitious" (or equivalent) in every other sentence at least, and not let them think for a minute that you assume the existence of god.
Yes I know that when you just said you were an atheist this shouldn't be necessary, but obviously many of these people don't understand atheism in their guts, so don't let their paradigm default you into a "believer but mad at god" box.
Yes, exactly. Basically remember who you are talking to and their context of knowledge.
Another example like the one you gave here is that biologists, talking to each other, will often anthropomorphize evolution, saying such-and-such organ's purpose is this, and that so-and-so was designed to... As if evolution were conscious of what it were doing. They know it isn't, but it's faster to talk that way, and neither risks being misunderstood. But usually they are much more careful talking to the general public because there might be creationists lurking. (And they most assuredly don't want to be quoted out of context as believing in ID!)
An MD friend of mine says he endeavors to say things like "The heart's function is to pump blood" even with other people who he knows accept evolution, just to not form bad habits.
biologists, talking to each other, will often anthropomorphize evolution
This is true for many, many expressions and cliches. (First one that pops into mind is "it's just the nature of the beast", when talking about any process or machine, etc.) I think it's a very important observation, because it points out one of the tendencies humans have to automatically assume purpose or cause or intent (and so on), because (perhaps) that's how our consciousness evolved.
Before we had adequate vocabulary or other ways to communicate our ideas to each other, it was much easier to assume there was some kind of "spirit" or other consciousness in other people, animals, or even objects (like mountains) or processes (like weather). This kind of thinking naturally made it easier to assume there were other, animating, conscious entities at work everywhere in the world around us.
I agree it's tedious, and they should understand. Yes, they're often lazy and boorish, petulant, etc... and the problem really is deeper than their willful misunderstanding of what you mean. You obviously don't have to cater to theists' ignorance if you don't wish to.
But my purpose in engaging them is actually to help them see the absurdity of their position, even if I have to spell it out for or spoon feed them. When I engage atheists, I do expect them to have some rudiments already down, but I never expect that from theists. Should they be more educated? Yes. Is it their responsibility? Yes. But what should be and what are, are usually quite at odds. The sad thing is, I do think most of them are that dense and truly do believe we're simply angry; I think it does have to be spelled out that we're speaking hypothetically. I do feel like I'm speaking with three-year-olds.
If dealing with those types is not your thing, by all means, don't. Most of them won't do the research on their own and, if we want to make progress with them, we've gotta speak their language... or just continue letting them override all of our rights. It does make me feel resentful sometimes, but I do hope my efforts will be worth it.
I think your efforts are probably wasted, not that you aren't quite adept and knowledgeable, it's just that most theists identify so personally with their beliefs, that to attack the belief, is to attack them, which causes an immediate lockdown of the logic centers of their minds.
I rarely attack theists, for that very reason - I attack their Bible, the very foundation of their entire belief system, which is built on fable and fabrication. I can't honestly say that that has ever deconverted anyone either, but if I can just raise a question in a mind, or if I'm really lucky, a doubt, then I've done the best I can.
Religion will ultimately die on its own, I'm just trying to help it along by applying a tourniquet to it's neck.
I agree completly. It's very important to choose your words, or choose what words not to use. I have found it helpful to not use the word god at all. I try to keep the conversation on the topic of ideas, If you can learn to do this without lossing your cool, or your mind, your relligious foe will always bring it back to the bible, the "word of god". Your response to this should always be, no those are the words of the men who wrote the bible thousands of years ago. It has worked for me and no one has mistaken me for someone who just needs a push in the right direction for many years now.
Yes I think that would work well.
On second thought... you might run into someone who responds with "he's your god too!"
In which case I'd suspect he thinks you are claiming to have your own god. Many christians implicitly believe that everyone worships something whether they know it or not.
Anyhow if you get this response, definitely take a step back and be more direct in asserting god is a complete fiction, not just "not my god."
I have "enshrined" this point in what I hope is better form here:
Interesting article, worth a read:
That's a good point Steve. Even my atheist best friend told me "you are just mad at God" when I told her I no longer believed in God (after knowing her for 25 years and my being a theist during all of that time). I was upset that she made that comment. We had a little bit of a fluff about it. Now I just don't bring religion up at all around her because I don't want to get pissed off again. She says she is an atheist but the last time religion was brought up she was saying things that an agnostic would say. I don't know what her deal is anymore.
It is annoying when you tell someone your stance about something you are very serious about and they do not get it at all, or just don't want to get it.
Yes, I know what you mean. Christians often point this out as as contradiction whilst in reality it does not take two much thought to perceive that these are two separate arguments of atheists:
1) There is no reason to believe gods exist.
2) People are following a god who is incredibly evil and violent.
If we are trying to engage with Christian beliefs to challenge them, quite frequently we need to speak of the god as if it were real. I argue a lot on Yahoo Answers and if I say.
'Why does this fictitious god kill so many children in the bible?' I am giving Christians an out to say 'What do you care? You don't want a real answer. You don't believe he exists.' and they will.
Whereas if I say ' Why did God kill so many children in the bible?' I get answers in which people say to me that all children go to Heaven, the people were wicked and chose to disobey God and they killed their children through this or they will claim that he didn't and ask for examples. They try to answer me sincerley and then they are engaging with me which they will not do if I state the God is not real. I want them to engage with me because it forces them to think.
The last time someone asked how atheists could disbelieve in god and also claim he is evil, there were about 30 responses from atheists saying 'Voldemort or Darth Vador (nearly always those two) do not exist and are also evil' which I think is fair enough.