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Permalink Reply by Nelson on May 2, 2010 at 7:35pm

OT scholars have long known that the OT presents a god, and by extension a Hebrew people, that understand that other gods existed. Julius Wellhausen, author in 1883(!) of Prolegomena zur Geschichte Israels (Prologue to the History of Israel; well worth a read btw!), is said to have first coined the term "monolatry" to refer to the belief in the existence of many gods while consistently worshiping only one, believing that while other gods existed only the one god was worthy of worship. only later, after the Babylonian exile, did Judaism develop away from monolatrism and toward monotheism.
interestingly, modern archaeology has shown that there was actually polytheism, not just monolatrism, in practice in ancient Israel. there have been found many idols and figurines of fertility and harvest goddesses that indicate that these deities were worshiped alongside Yahweh as part of a Canaanite pantheon.
fascinating stuff.

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Permalink Reply by Gaytor on May 2, 2010 at 7:48pm

Along the same line of polytheistic thought, who is he talking about in Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness". Who are these others they are talking about? Christianity makes up an excuse with Jesus and the Holy Ghost, but the trinity doesn't exist in Judaism. You can't use Christian Theology to explain Jewish Theology. Either it stands on it's own or they both fall.
Hopefully someone has a viable explanation here... not apologetics. Nice find.

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Permalink Reply by Nelson on May 2, 2010 at 7:53pm

that's another example of the same thing. i touched briefly on that in my discussion of the Tower of Babel story where Yahweh again uses the "us" pronoun in Genesis 11:6-7

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Permalink Reply by Gaytor on May 2, 2010 at 9:39pm

I can't accept the change in story that Christians make here. You can't take the history of a religion, throw it out and substitute your own. If you can't accept the story that got you to the proverbial here, then you are not accepting of God as he's laid himself out. No foundation, and house of cards falls. No?
Of course we are talking about just one aspect, but it's pretty central to the whole concept of Christianity. If it wasn't a trinity, then what the...?

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Permalink Reply by Will on May 2, 2010 at 11:11pm

Just some verses to give you a balanced view of the bible.

Deu 4:28 And there you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
Deu 28:36 "The LORD will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone.
Exo 20:23 You shall not make gods of silver to be with me, nor shall you make for yourselves gods of gold.
Exo 34:17 "You shall not make for yourself any gods of cast metal.

This just gives you an idea of what God calls "gods". If it is possible for them to make "gods" than it possible that the "gods" of Egypt had now power as well or were fake. Don't just cherry pick as you read.

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Permalink Reply by Gaytor on May 2, 2010 at 11:19pm

So who is the proverbial us in Judaism?

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Permalink Reply by Will on May 3, 2010 at 12:16am

First off, This is don't a directly related question. God never refers to himself as "gods." All I gave you were other verses of God saying what he calls "gods."

Now your question.
Well, Thats a weighted question. =) Judaism of the old testament is what you asking right? not moder day. To me or the bible for that matter, they are not one in the same. Any ties to modern day Judaism and the old testament died in 70 AD when the Genealogy of Jews was destroyed (I can give you reason from the old testament of why this is true.) In the new testament, It does talk of the the "God head" which is the Jewish God of the holy spirit, Jesus, and the father. (if you want a tie/connection between the old testament and new testament, I would suggest you read the book of Hebrews.) The old testament scripture doesn't no speak of "the holy spirit" directly, but it does speak of God's spirit as holy.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me
Isa 63:10 But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.
Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his Holy Spirit,

So i can't really give you direct reference in the old testament. I can give you a new testament reference, but it would seem that I would have to explain the difference and the connection between the old and new testaments. I don't know if you want me to do that and again Hebrews explains it clearly.

There is a possible Jesus appearing in the old testament. In the new testament we have an example of an angel refusing to be worshiped. (below)

Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
Rev 22:9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."

but The "angel of the Lord" received worship in the old testament.

Jos 5:13 When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us, or for our adversaries?"
Jos 5:14 And he said, "No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?"
Jos 5:15 And the commander of the LORD's army said to Joshua, "Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.

This could mean that he was Christ and many biblical writers have that leaning, but we can't know for sure.

I show this to say that I just blowing my mouth off, but i giving you the time of day to be as fair as I can be. The real question is can the Judaism successfully sustain its self, without the new testament, today? My backing is it can't and I can give you biblical text to back it up is you like.

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Permalink Reply by Will on May 3, 2010 at 12:43am

Ok, Thats fine, but there is no way that these Jews can worship God, how he commanded them to, without more information then the old testament. The reason why is because of the Levitt tribe. They were the only priest that could make sacrifice to God. The temple had the records of genealogy. When the temple was destroy, the records went with it; therefore rendering the Jewish faith useless because they could no longer prove who the a true priests were. They could all profess to be Jews religiously speaking, but their merit in worshiping God correctly was no longer valid which made worship vain/meaningless.

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Permalink Reply by Will on May 3, 2010 at 1:26am

They won't be able to Go alway the back to Aaron. Just back to AD 70 or so. Thats from those who follow it. I would rather know their sectoral sources. The DNA connection will only lead to after 70 AD, but thats not the only reason. there are more connections that lead to Christ and the church coming in the old testament.

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Permalink Reply by Gaytor on May 3, 2010 at 1:04am

The Hebrew word is Shekhinah. Holy Spirit is a Christian term because there wasn't a Greek translation from Hebrew or Aramaic. The connotation of Shekhinah being a being is not how the Jews use it. Since we are talking about Jewish text as the source, Christianity plays no role in the explanation. You can't jump forward 1800-2000 years to reinterpret what was written in Genesis. The relevance and understanding in terms of context wouldn't be half of what we understand of ancient Palestine. I don't suggest that we go back to rewrite that history either.

Shekhinah is the presence of God. For lack of a better term it would be an aura about him. The two are inseparable and as such are not two beings.
Jewish Encyclopedia

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Permalink Reply by Will on May 3, 2010 at 1:17am

There was a Greek translation. The XXL. Which means 70. There were that many translators.
Jewish Encyclopedia is an interesting site, but i would suggest you look up the Hebrew not what Jewish people tell you it is. There is a different. People tend to justify what they already believe no matter what it is.

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Permalink Reply by Gaytor on May 3, 2010 at 9:31am

"People tend to justify what they already believe no matter what it it."

I couldn't agree more.

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