...a couple staffers had been armed?

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First off population statistic you can gather enough countreies to compare like germany spain france canada britain netherlands so on to add up the close tot he same population as the US and when per capita is checked it still bears that gun violence is down does that prove anything I said in my post of course not. Now moving on the illegal guns. It does NOT statistically help you defend yourself agains those who buy guns and use them illegally anymore than the people who commit crimes with legal guns.

My whole point to some is stop making this about defending yourself or family. these are adult toys plain and simple. If a mentally ill person gets a gun illegal and kills somebody the person is still hurt or dead and the other is still either in jail or more likely more mentally ill than beofre and going to do it again but you owning a weapon to fight that statistically doesn' make you more likely to survive.

but you owning a weapon to fight that statistically doesn' make you more likely to survive.

Where did you get that statistic? Well, it's not actually a statistic. It's an allegation that there's a statistic. Anyway, please find and present it.

@ Mat Waldie,

I carry a gun and I drive a car, you are more likely to be killed by my car then by my gun, statistically.

You say:

but you owning a weapon to fight that statistically doesn' make you more likely to survive.

Mat, each year the FBI reports a few hundred civilian "justified homicides", those would be the survivors.

People do defend themselves in the real world everyday.  It's not the gun, it is the intent of the person who holds it.

Mat Waldie says;

Statistically more people get the ther own weapon used agains them then use it to stop a crime.

Claim without source, what are you trying to be, a christian?

Okay, I want to hear from you gun nuts out there.  I have two questions you don’t want to answer.

1) How do you account for the fact that no other country has anywhere near the number of gun deaths we do?  Face it: you don’t have an answer (you are willing to give) that makes any sense.  Gee, if we knew how THOSE countries prevented THEIR people from being routinely slaughtered every day, maybe we could copy what THEY do.  Ya think?!

2) Where should we draw the line? I mean how many little children and other innocents have to die each year before you are willing to give up your imaginary right to carry around assault weapons and large magazines?  Obviously, 30,000 isn’t the tipping point.  How about a million?  How about...never mind; you don’t care how many die as long as you’ve got that gun handy to blow away anyone you don't like - like ME.

Charlton Heston inadvertently gave HIS answer to Michael Moore.  He made it clear that he feels we have too many blacks and Mexicans in this country.  Is that YOUR answer, as well?  Of course, nearly all the mass killings are perpetrated by white people.  Perhaps we should deport or throw in prison, all white people.

It boggles my mind how ANY country with the carnage we inflict on each other with guns, year in and year out, can call itself the "greatest country" with a straight face.

One more thing: I've said it here many times before, but it bears constant repeating: the NRA is the most bloodthirsty criminal organization in American history.  Even the Mafia wasn't evil enough to accept money from gun manufacturers and retailers.  They only killed other criminals, not helpless little kids in a classroom.  The NRA has one goal and one goal only: to make sure the gun industry is enriched; it has ZERO interest in how many innocent people are killed by the products that make their bosses (and themselves) wealthy. 

What about the National Hand Grenade Association (NHGA). You can pry my Hand Grenade from that cold dead crater where my hand used to be. I have the right to bear arms, see there it is up in that tree!

If bucks could shoot back or shoot first, deer hunting would not be so popular. I grew up in a military, pro (big caliber) gun family, now my optic nerve is barely attached. If you rely on weapons to feel like a big man, you are just a wuss, pure and simple. In fact, all of these killers have one thing in common - inadequacy.

If you rely on weapons to feel like a big man, you are just a wuss, pure and simple.

I'm trying to figure out how that's not a non sequitur.

@ RobertPiano,

As a card carrying member of the NHGA, I am sure you would not be granted membership because no one can be a member if he or she doesn't know the Three Cardinal Rules of the Hand-Grenader

1. Grasp grenade firmly.

2. Pull pin.

3. Throw.  (this is the one you are missing)

Throw the pin right? Yet still I failed to get a membership in the NRA. The said my IQ is way too high.

LOL I'm gonna hire you as my proof reader. :)

I'm shocked, you couldn't get a membership into the NRA...did your check bounce??? LOL

Shit if you got a pulse and $35 bucks you're in. :D

PulseWikipedia: In medicine, one's pulse represents the tactile arterial palpation of the heartbeat by trained fingertips.

1) South Africa, with a much smaller population (and a democratically elected government) has 32,000 gun deaths a year compared to the United States with a mere 9,400. South Africa's population is only about 52,000,000 compared the the United States' 315,000,000. So, what are you talking about? Even that sublime Buddhist nation Thailand has more gun deaths per annum: about 20,000, more than twice that of the United States, which has a much much larger population.

2) There is so much bad logic and bad polemicizing here that it's hard to know where to begin. Where did you get your 30,000 gun deaths figure? The figure I found here is less than 1/3 that. Am I a racist because Charlton Heston was? Likewise, there is no necessary linkage between the NRA and all gun owners, many of whom also think the NRA is just a lobbying arm of the gun manufacturers.

Why don't you come back with some well-reasoned arguments demonstrating that there's a linkage between confiscating or limiting access to guns reduces gun deaths in the United States. You see, comparing Americans with Icelanders or New Zealanders or (East) Indians isn't an apples to apples comparison. Americans are a breed unto themselves, as are Icelanders, New Zealanders, or (East) Indians.

Unseen has answered you fairly capably, Dale.  Your "argumentation" is shot through with fallacies (E.g., correlation = causation--but you compound it correlating selectively, ignoring cases like South Africa and Thailand that wouldn't match your desired causation) and emotional appeals.

Here's my counter, Dale:

How is it that these rampages occur ONLY in places where guns are strictly forbidden?

Is it just barely possible that they occur there because guns are forbidden (to the law abiding, who would only use them in self defense) there?

This seems to be something the anti-gun folks refuse to think about.


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