Would the Connecticut elementary school toll have been smaller if...

...a couple staffers had been armed?

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Permalink Reply by Marc on December 16, 2012 at 4:21pm

kOrsan,
Gun ownership is very highly regulated in China. The system is not perfct and there is a black market for guns but based on gun violence statistics it is quite effective.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-04/21/content_856308.htm

Funny how this article includes an apology to the victims of a gun violence incident in the US, but it is written in 2007 and is referring to Virginia Tech.

So I doubt if its a matter of the seriousness of the criminal. The question I had, is would a 20 year old nut case be connected enough to the black market gun trade in China to get a gun. I doubt it.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on December 16, 2012 at 7:40pm

...based on gun violence statistics (Chinese gun laws are) quite effective.

Marc, you're so silly! Your logic works only if you assume that there's no difference between a Chinese citizen and an American citizen. But anyone who knows anything about China knows Chinese are far more obedient and far less anti-authoritarian than Americans.

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on December 16, 2012 at 5:25pm

@k - RE: "What if MacGyver had attacked this school? Should duct tape be banned?" - no, but bubble gum and paperclips are definitely on the contraband list!

I'm with you - I said early on that we need to look at the relationship the guy had with his mother, and the fact that he kept his room pristine - what 20-year old does that?

Permalink Reply by Unseen on December 16, 2012 at 4:18pm

The list of fatalities would have probably been longer. If armed guards have weapons holstered with safety on and the gunman caught them by surprise they would have been shot before even drawing their weapon. Security guards would be the first target. Not only that but one or two guards can not cover the whole school.

You're assuming the armed guards are in uniform perhaps by the entrance. I would prefer they simply be either armed teachers some of whom would be competent gun users either through military service, hunting, or target practice or plain clothed cops. Covering the whole school is hardly necessary in a case like this with one shooter. Finding the shooter is no problem. Follow the gun shots!

Permalink Reply by SteveInCO on December 16, 2012 at 4:59pm

Let me add too, that it wouldn't even be necessary for every school to have someone in it who is armed undercover (as it were), the mere fact that there could be someone there would deter many such attacks.

And please spare me the "guy is nuts he doesn't care" arguments. Incidents like this do not happen where the perp knows there could be armed people. When is the last time someone went berserk at a gun show? If the gun-phobic bedwetters are right, a gun show is exactly where you should expect to see the OK Corral.

It's ALWAYS schools, post offices and other places posted as forbidding weapons. The perp knows he will have a herd of defenseless victims. Whatever sick impulse pushes him to off a bunch of people who aren't even the ones responsible for the stress in his life, he knows he wants to kill as many as possible before he can be stopped. That means a crowded place full of unarmed people.

Attacks like this happen in schools BECAUSE guns are strictly forbidden in schools. And I think those who insisted on this ban and still insist on it despite its demonstrated worthelessness bear some blame for that.

Permalink Reply by xi on December 16, 2012 at 6:24pm

the thing is, various school districts already have their own police. as do various transit departments. most of these school police concentrate on the high schools as these young adults we fail to parent need armed guards. the school districts with community colleges have a sizable police force. guns in the hands of teachers is about as useful as making cops teach kids science....

like you said, it usually gives these creatures bravado to know they are the only armed one. dumb idea or not, a parked squad car at almost every school in my area seems like a decent concept. the first ones to be "targeted" as an argument... you have to have the guile to attack an armed police officer. looking at the history and faces of these creatures... i dont see it. i dont see them engaging a "cop" probably why most end their lives before the remote possibility of a "cop" arriving with a gun of their own.

ill be all for "gun control" but all the arguments usually brought up for it...makes it a fruitless emotional gesture to put this sort of tragedy behind you. we have a serious cultural problem in the U.S. screaming about guns and the evil NRA is just a symptom of the problem. sorry it is. there is so much that needs to be changed, that concentrating on any one thing is childish, but maturity is not a characteristic we have in public discourse.

Permalink Reply by SteveInCO on December 16, 2012 at 7:29pm

Your suggestion of a squad car at every school misses the point perfectly.

The point is to allow ordinary citizens, who have applied for and gotten concealed carry permits (so that the shooter cannot know whether anyone is armed or who they are) to carry on school grounds. If you don't do this, but do put cop cars on every campus eventually one of them will be called away for some emergency--and now the shooter knows that the school is utterly undefended.

Permalink Reply by xi on December 17, 2012 at 10:48am

actually i didnt. nice try. your using the analogy of the air marshal program.... but with average people...i was not, i was bringing up the fact that plenty of school districts already have uniformed and plain clothes officers at their schools.

i know plenty of concealed carry permit holders that should not be responsible for repelling this attack of gunmen waiting for squad cars (that are owned by the school district and do not get called off on random municipal emergencies) to drive off and provide this coordinated opportunity of some sort...

while your idea is noted and not invalid. it is not new, and leaves those that are not responsible for security elect to use deadly force as they see fit, between errands...i dont see how one "point" is totally off, but the other is "perfect". i find your idea just as utterly flawed. Both in conjunction might be a little more palatable to the informed individual. which is what i was trying to say....but did not spell it out for you to follow, my apologies.

Permalink Reply by SteveInCO on December 17, 2012 at 9:04pm

Sorry but it did look to me like after Unseen and I were talking about a covertly armed presence you then started talking about a squad car at every school--which is the exact opposite of a covertly armed presence, and would have none of the advantages of such. And my point was that it does have some advantages over an overt presence.

If I misunderstood your intent I apologize.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on December 17, 2012 at 11:27am

It's common for criminals and terrorists to create a diversion (a false incident report, for example) to distract police. An few armed citizens on campus would appear to be a good backup defense.

Permalink Reply by James Cox on December 17, 2012 at 8:55pm

So in your experience, what would you suggest as workable options?

This could a good moment build a decision tree, to lay out options and identify conflicts. If we had some probabilty data relating to options tried, that would be of help. There might be hidden combinations of options that can generate significantly reduced risk.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on December 16, 2012 at 7:09pm

It's strange that a lot of people are of the mentality that adds up to "Make me more vulnerable; it'll make me (feel) safer." Like you said about the lack of gun show massacres, someone who wants to kill a lot of people before going out himself in a blaze of glory is looking for the most vulnerable people, be they 6 or 7 year olds or people in a dark movie theater.