To me the world seems to have lost it's mind. Last few days have looked at pictures of gitmo bay and almost threw up. The dehumanizing of people was beyond words. History talked of hitler and auschwitz. Decades later what I saw in those photos of gitmo made me think of images of the the very humiliation that the United states once fought against. Turkey is burning because of fighting back the government turned on it's own people like a mad dog. here in america we finally start getting rights for LBGT . Along comes salvation army saying that it should be a death sentence. Killing people over religion seems to be on the rise. in india  women are burning for supposed witchcraft and girls killed  being victims of rape . The catholic church is says birth control is wrong . Nuns who argue with church are being excommunicated.  In last political race it was debated whether women had a right to their on viginas .  People are dying world over because of religion and lack of even basic medical and dental care. there is hope for this world right? 

http://www.allegiancemusical.com/blog-entry/young-turks?source=upwo...

http://ccrjustice.org/files/Report_ReportOnTorture.pdf

http://www.examiner.com/article/lgbt-parenting-a-death-sentence-wit...

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/05/29-6

Tags: Army, Death, Human, LBGT, Salvation, abuses, religon, rights

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Cosmic rays are one thing. Gamma rays are something else entirely.

Thanks for the new Reply thread.

They didn't sail to the U.S. as employees of a European corporation dooming their offspring to be employees of said corporation, but I guess you wouldn't have had a problem with that, would you?

Putting aside that, as arch pointed out, some of them were corporations, who said that all interstellar travel was required to be employee-enslaving megacorp projects? I certainly didn't, that seems to have cropped up from within your own brain. Such projects would be expensive, certainly, but they could be corporation-financed, government-financed, collective-financed, etc. (Maybe even religion-financed? Anyone want to see all the Scientologists set off to visit Xenu?)

(b) returning to Europe was a possibility but there would be no similar possibility for the offspring of the astronauts, would there?

True, but if your bar is 'we should take no actions that might limit the choices of future generations', I guess you don't think we should be doing much at all. And here's another option for you, since past generations didn't leave the Earth on a colony effort, I had the possibility of living on another planet unfairly taken away from me.

I was talking about tax money being spent to send astronauts into space with no benefit whatsoever to their trip

Like smoke detectors? (Skylab) A new type of valve for artificial hearts came from designs for the ISS. MRI was developed from the space program. The air tanks used by fire fighters? NASA design. Carbon monoxide detectors? NASA again. Stud-less winter tires? Guess who? Long term storage of white blood cells? Hey, it's NASA! UV-resistant coating for sunglasses? NASA! Improvements for infrastructure (like bridges) to resist fractures? Yes, NASA. And let's not forget the tons of medical advances like remote diagnostic monitoring, cataract surgery improvements, improved pacemakers, improved dental surgeries and so on that came our of the space program. Yep, no benefit to humanity at all. *rolls eyes*

I was vaguely aware that the Russians had lost some astronauts, but that doesn't help your case a lot, does it? LOL

It helps your credibility even less.

We have more important things to do.

I'm certain that when Maxwell was spending all that time on fiddling with magnets, someone told him that there were more important things he could be doing. He had no idea what the benefit of figuring out electromagnetic fields might be, but learning was enough and it proved to be of incalculable benefit. Maybe we won't learn anything new from a trip to Alpha Centauri (except for the tons of things we'll have to learn, invent and develop in order to make the trip. Earth still gets all those benefits) and maybe we will. We'll never know unless we try.

"If you don't try, you will never succeed."

RE: "that seems to have cropped up from within your own brain" - I'm always astonished at what manages to slither out of that twilight zone.

...but if your bar is 'we should take no actions that might limit the choices of future generations', I guess you don't think we should be doing much at all. And here's another option for you, since past generations didn't leave the Earth on a colony effort, I had the possibility of living on another planet unfairly taken away from me.

Not "We should take no actions that might limit the choices of future generations," which would be ridiculous, but "We shouldn't segregate a branch of our species from the main line for the entire duration of their lives on a mission not of their choosing, essentially functioning as slaves, whose existence is subsumed to the intents and goals of distant masters on Earth."

Like smoke detectors? (Skylab) A new type of valve for artificial hearts came from designs for the ISS. MRI was developed from the space program. The air tanks used by fire fighters? NASA design. Carbon monoxide detectors? NASA again. Stud-less winter tires? Guess who? Long term storage of white blood cells? Hey, it's NASA! UV-resistant coating for sunglasses? NASA! Improvements for infrastructure (like bridges) to resist fractures? Yes, NASA. And let's not forget the tons of medical advances like remote diagnostic monitoring, cataract surgery improvements, improved pacemakers, improved dental surgeries and so on that came our of the space program. Yep, no benefit to humanity at all. *rolls eyes*

Oh, I know that any research can have positive results, even if the research is for even more lethal antipersonnel mines or better weaponized anthrax. I just think money should be spent on projects that are ethical and should be done in the first place, not on the notion that, no matter how bad the project, it's justified on the basis that something else good might (or even might be likely to) come out of it.

"If you don't try, you will never succeed."

"You can't win if you don't play" (lottery slogan)

Please, send me even more bad arguments to criticize and ridicule.

We shouldn't segregate a branch of our species from the main line for the entire duration of their lives on a mission not of their choosing, essentially functioning as slaves, whose existence is subsumed to the intents and goals of distant masters on Earth.

Slaves? Distant masters on Earth? You really love the whole 'helpless passenger' thing, don't you? How, exactly, are they slaves? As has been pointed out, once launched there isn't exactly much that Earth can do it enforce its will, so they are hardly subservient to a distant controlling body, as you insist on assuming. I notice that you carefully avoiding my point that an interstellar colonization effort could be generated from within a self-contained group, all of whom leave with the ship, therefore there is no one on Earth who would even claim control, much less be able to exert it.

They may or may not be able to control their line of flight, depending on the design of the ship, but we're not particularly able to control the direction that Earth travels, so that's nothing particularly new. 

Please, send me even more bad arguments to criticize and ridicule


You're generating more than enough of your own bad arguments without asking for more.

How, exactly, are they slaves?

American companies took people from their native land and used them as workers without pay. At least those slaves were sometimes freed. 

 I notice that you carefully avoiding my point that an interstellar colonization effort could be generated from within a self-contained group, all of whom leave with the ship, therefore there is no one on Earth who would even claim control, much less be able to exert it.

Their control effectively runs on autopilot, which could be worse in many ways.

American companies took people from their native land and used them as workers without pay.

Considering that an interstellar colony ship hasn't happened yet, you can hardly use past tense. Or are you claiming to be predicting the future? 

You are claiming that any generation ship would require the future generations to be slaves. I am asking you to provide evidence of that assertion. You have failed to do so.

Dave, Unseen's claims require imagination, not evidence.

American companies took people from their native land and used them as workers without pay.

Considering that an interstellar colony ship hasn't happened yet, you can hardly use past tense. Or are you claiming to be predicting the future? 

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You're either joking or you never heard of the slavery wherein American companies bought African people and forced them to work in the U.S. to further the corporation's goals. At least they could be freed.

You are claiming that any generation ship would require the future generations to be slaves. I am asking you to provide evidence of that assertion. You have failed to do so.

LOL. It's not a matter of a requirement, it's a matter of a de facto state of being they'd be in. "Well, gee, I don't like this job. I'd like to get a degree in Marketing and apply for a job with a big ad agency. Oh yeah, I can't, I'M HALFWAY BETWEEN EARTH AND ALPHA CENTAURI, so I guess I'll have to work at this job for the rest of my life, like it or not."

I don't think there's an ethical problem in the case of a mission the astronauts can return from or if they are neutered (voluntarily, of course) before taking off. In that case, some sort of hibernation technology would be required to get them to their destination.

It just blows my mind that you think it's ethical to force people who haven't made a personal commitment to some company or government agency to work for said company or agency.

U:

We shouldn't segregate a branch of our species from the main line for the entire duration of their lives on a mission not of their choosing, ...."

Our ancestors fought for freedom from tyranny; the great, great, great, (repeat "great" a few thousand times), grand children of the people who left earth can fight for their own freedom.

Imagine a rebellion in which:

1) news from the local underlings of those distant masters on Earth take multiple light years to reach those masters, and

2) those masters' instructions take multiple light years to reach their underlings.

Hm-mm, I might write a sci-fi novel.

RE: "I might write a sci-fi novel" - go for it, just be aware that that which critics call, "garbage," authors prefer to call, "practice" --

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