I tend to get annoyed with the instantaneous dismissal of creationism simply because the physical world can support itself by itself, similar arguments. Or just the general idea that theists are theists because "science can't explain this phenomenon, therefore God did it". Nobody seems to recognize that "God" is outside the box of the universe; he isn't just some finite entity made of dark matter who at random times manipulates the physical realm in ways that science can't explain... eh.. what i'm getting at is that so what if science does accurately explain event X, what if we can even use science to explain everything that happens in the entire universe!? When a creationist says that God set the world into motion, that doesn't mean that said creationist has to pretend centripetal force and inertia is made up by God-haters and it is actually the  physical hand of God spinning the earth and whirling it around the sun... that means said creationist believes that the centripetal force due to gravity is God's doing. This idea can apply to the Big Bang theory as well, even evolution for all I know. When the Bible says that God created the Earth in 6 days and I hear a counter argument that goes something like "oh well the earth was actually formed in x amount of days so explain that" I just say "the hell if I know" because I don't know! Go argue against a fundamentalist! I don't know if the Bible is speaking literally at that instance or not, if so, maybe it really was? who's to say at what point in the earth's creation did God start counting? Who's to set the precise definition of the word "day" in that verse? The point is that there are too many dang variables for anyone to outright dismiss God because of what's in the Book of Genesis, unless YOU are the one reading the Bible like a fundamentalist.

What I personally get from the Bible has absolutely nothing to do with science. You can't just compare science against God like they are two conflicting views of what happens in the universe. From a purely scientific point of view, I'm saying that maybe the deists or agnostics have it right in the sense that God may or may not intervene in the physical world and who the heck knows or even cares if He's actually moving stuff around or not. Worrying over "proving" that He does or does not exists is not the point, because science simply can't do that either way! Its just an endless cycle of opinion.

The Bible isn't intended to leave you worrying about finding tangible evidence for God. Finding God is a heart issue, not a science issue. I think that is what the Bible is all about. :)


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Jerod; it seems to me that your definition of creationism is a lot more inclusive than what most Christians believe.  Every creationist organization I'm aware of is likewise a fundamentalist one.

  Atheists by definition, are not believers in any particular paradigm.  The atheist aim is NOT to prove God does not exist or that science does.  The atheist simply says he/she lacks a belief in any kind of god.

An antitheist, on the other hand, is another matter.  I am an antitheist.  I not only don't believe in God; I don't believe that there could possibly BE such a counterintuitive thing as a god.  I believe that all religions are bad.  And to your point about science: I believe science simply makes all religions unnecessary in terms of explaining nature.

Your belief in God as something in your "heart" is just fine with me; however, if you were 100% honest with yourself, you would realize that that the only reason you keep something in your heart for which you implicitly concede there is not a shred of evidence, scientific or otherwise, is that you are so afraid of death that you MUST believe in a god-given afterlife.       

Finally, I have no interest in disabusing you of your God belief, just as long as you keep it where it belongs: in your heart; maybe in your church; but certainly not in my public school; unless, of course, you are willing to let me teach evolution in your Sunday School.  And to me the term "creationism" is synonymous with fundamentalists' efforts to force science out of the schools and replace it with Christianity.

Very respectable. I assure you, though, that I am NOT a fundamentalist. In fact I loathe fundamentalism. (Not the people, the belief) AND I agree that it is evil. Please do not put me in that category.

Nobody seems to recognize that "God" is outside the box of the universe


So you are implying that the universe is inside your imaginary friend's box, while he is outside having a heart to heart relationship with you. I'm not impressed. 

Let me give you some facts the age of the Universe is about 13.75 billion years. The Universe is in constant expansion. The edge of the Observable Universe is about 46 light years away. There are probably more than 100 billion galaxies in the Observable Universe. As for the Universe is 100 billion trillion (and growing) more than we see... Humbling, isn't it?

What is outside the Universe? Nothing.


Keep reading your bible and going to church, until you learn how to use reason and logic.

Stutz wrote:  You're only truly free of that vicious cycle when you recognize that you were never guilty in the first place!

Jerod replied:  Then how DO you know when you are guilty? This is the kind of thinking that should be thought of as "scary".

@ Jerod - LOL. Just wow. Come on. You talk as if atheists never feel guilt or never take actions to avoid doing things that will cause guilt or suffering to others. You can't expect us to take that comment seriously, Please rephrase it, if you don't mind, since I know you could not have possibly meant what I am taking from your statement.

There's guilt for realizing wrong that is done

Ok, so what is this guilt to you, really? Something you feel in your heart, or a set of chemical reactions in the brain developed by million of years of evolution in order for the betterment of the species? I mean seriously now, is that really what right and wrong is to you? Or do you actually believe in a definite Right and Wrong. In which case I would ask you how can you possibly remain an atheist? How can Right and Wrong exist in a universe of time, space, matter, energy, and chance?

That question WASN'T rhetorical.

That question WASN'T rhetorical.


@ Jerod - Hey, I would love to post on this thread some more, but first I have to know what you are talking about. What question? I can't find this question. The software can be tricky so when you make a statement like that, you may wan to cut and past what you are referring to so we can follow your meaning better.

My apologies. I was referring to the one that you quoted and then responded to as if it were rhetorical.

Then how DO you know when you are guilty?

Romans 8:1?

To sum up, the Bible teaches that the purpose of guilt is to draw you back on the right path, but anything further than that is just dwelling on your guilt and that is bad...

Enjoy your popcorn. :D
@ Jerod - To sum it up, the Bible teaches that it is fine for God to give a command for horses to be tortured if he sees fit. Joshua 11:6. Oh, and somewhere in there (the" Holy Bible"), God commands people to kill babies. Now this God dude is the one who should be feeling some serious guilt if you ask me (you know, if he existed in the first place, which he doesn't).

Hmmmm, but there is a definite answer for the individuals who do decide to follow God, the hard part is trying to demonstrate that He is real to those who have not yet found Him.. and what it ultimately comes down to is living the most loving life you can and praying on a daily basis that those who have not yet found Him will, because it isn't up to the believer what another chooses to believe.


@ Jerod - How can you decide not to follow something that does not exist? I really would like to understand. Snort.

Is it not?

Are you saying that you are so infinitely sure of yourself that you have no choice whether  or not to believe? If that is the case, I apologize for wasting your time.



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