I tend to get annoyed with the instantaneous dismissal of creationism simply because the physical world can support itself by itself, similar arguments. Or just the general idea that theists are theists because "science can't explain this phenomenon, therefore God did it". Nobody seems to recognize that "God" is outside the box of the universe; he isn't just some finite entity made of dark matter who at random times manipulates the physical realm in ways that science can't explain... eh.. what i'm getting at is that so what if science does accurately explain event X, what if we can even use science to explain everything that happens in the entire universe!? When a creationist says that God set the world into motion, that doesn't mean that said creationist has to pretend centripetal force and inertia is made up by God-haters and it is actually the  physical hand of God spinning the earth and whirling it around the sun... that means said creationist believes that the centripetal force due to gravity is God's doing. This idea can apply to the Big Bang theory as well, even evolution for all I know. When the Bible says that God created the Earth in 6 days and I hear a counter argument that goes something like "oh well the earth was actually formed in x amount of days so explain that" I just say "the hell if I know" because I don't know! Go argue against a fundamentalist! I don't know if the Bible is speaking literally at that instance or not, if so, maybe it really was? who's to say at what point in the earth's creation did God start counting? Who's to set the precise definition of the word "day" in that verse? The point is that there are too many dang variables for anyone to outright dismiss God because of what's in the Book of Genesis, unless YOU are the one reading the Bible like a fundamentalist.

What I personally get from the Bible has absolutely nothing to do with science. You can't just compare science against God like they are two conflicting views of what happens in the universe. From a purely scientific point of view, I'm saying that maybe the deists or agnostics have it right in the sense that God may or may not intervene in the physical world and who the heck knows or even cares if He's actually moving stuff around or not. Worrying over "proving" that He does or does not exists is not the point, because science simply can't do that either way! Its just an endless cycle of opinion.

The Bible isn't intended to leave you worrying about finding tangible evidence for God. Finding God is a heart issue, not a science issue. I think that is what the Bible is all about. :)


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I'm pretty sure you're right. ^

I'll leave it up there anyways. You clearly understood for the most part what I was pitifully trying to put into words, so its good enough for me.

I am curious, though, since you care so little about wasting your time pondering deities, why bother associating yourself with an atheist forum? All this place talks about is God, God, God.



One reason I come here is because I am surrounded by Christians in my daily life, and it gets wearying to listen to them and to answer their questions.  Being an atheist in the US, I am in a minority and believe me, Christians seem to want to squeeze the atheism right out of me.

I am so concerned with this issue because of the power the Christians have in politics, culture, and law.  For instance, I don't want creationism taught as science in my kids' schools, and I don't want right-wing leaning yahoos on the Supreme Court overturning Roe vs. Wade and forcing young women to carry unwanted children to term.  I abhor abortion by the way, but I don't want the choice taken away by religious zealots.  

I don't care about a god.  I just wish Christians would stop trying to shove theirs down my throat.  If Christians would just keep it to themselves we'd all be happier.  I know when I go to work today that George, my co-worker, is likely to try to tell me more about how he still hold out hope that I will find Jesus, and Dot might tell me again that her god is "bigger than your doubt."

I don't have doubts about god, and I'm not seeking a deity.  It gets frustrating trying to tell people that, and it's nice to have reinforcement.  

Succinctly and well put, Rodney.

I value your input. I'm not sure if your first paragraph recognized what I was trying to say(which would be my fault), but I meant that the God of the gaps argument IS fallacious and is repeatedly being used as a straw man. My own argument is more like 'what if we can prove everything about how the universe started using science, and that just shows how God did it.'...

Anyways I don't know how much of the Bible is literal or not.. i'm no scholar. Maybe things like the talking donkey story are figurative? maybe that was one instance where God actually did perform something that we would deem physically impossible today? maybe the guy was just hearing voices in his head, but they actually were intended by God? Maybe it was just made up? I tend not to jump straight to one conclusion.


I think you and I and everyone reading this knows that there is another form of logic outside of what modern cultures calls science.

This sounds suspiciously similar to an argument put forth on the Atheist Experience this week... but I'll bite. What is this "other form of logic outside of science"?


Please tell the world about this new method of finding truth which is apparently unknown to science.

I used to think just like this. And then I got tired of defending the (ever shrinking) presence of God in the stuff we measly humans hadn't figured out yet. 


An "all-powerful" being that can't defend -itself- in this argument isn't worth the effort spent defending it.  


If you want to remove God from the natural world altogether (and honestly, how could you then justify calling it Bible-God, as Bible-God is clearly a creator-god and one and the same with the natural world? but we'll play along) I have plenty of good reasons to deny the existence or at the very least the benevolence of your deity using my own observations and the stories of the Bible. Anyone with a decent moral compass uninhibited by religious brainwashing can see that the "heart" of Bible-God is a black one at best. 

Anyone with a decent moral compass

I apologize for using this and I do value your input as well, but as for my response to the good Mr. Chlebek... ^case and point.

It's like if I come home and find that my lamp has been broken. I can assume that someone broke into my house, smashed my lamp, and left. Then I learn that it was actually my dog that jumped up to eat the bowl of cereal my wife left on the nightstand. There are paw prints, my dog is covered in milk, and even has a little glass in her coat from the lamp (don't worry she's okay, I'm making this up).

I can continue to believe that the lamp was broken by a burglar, or I can assume that my dog did it. But I have to assume that it may have happened differently. The evidence strongly supports my dog's participation. But both events could have occurred at separate times. The burglar could have broken my lamp, and later my dog jumped up to eat the bowl of cereal, that my wife left out.

I think going much further only proves my willingness to go into the absurd, when my point is that in the face of strong evidence it isn't reasonable to assume divine intervention. We've come to a point where we don't need to fill in the gaps with magic. We can simply say that we aren't sure yet. And even then, it will still only be the most educated assumption we have.

The only other thing I'd add is that I'm not concerned that you believe or don't believe that my dog exists. And you probably don't care either. The point is that I'm not forcing you to declare her existence in order to pledge your allegiance to your country. I'm also not getting a tax exemption for her. I'm not making you declare your trust in her with a national motto. When you go to parks, she leaves little icky monuments to herself, but I clean them up out of respect for you. I'm not asking your kids to have to learn about her in public school. I'm not telling you that you will writhe in agony for eternity if you don't believe in her.

If you believe in a god that's fine with me. I will defend your right to practice your faith. I only ask that you acknowledge and respect my freedom from religion. The alternative is unpleasant.
Daniel, that was a wonderful analogy. I plan to use it.

Love it. : )


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