Wondering how this point will come across
I tend to get annoyed with the instantaneous dismissal of creationism simply because the physical world can support itself by itself, similar arguments. Or just the general idea that theists are theists because "science can't explain this phenomenon, therefore God did it". Nobody seems to recognize that "God" is outside the box of the universe; he isn't just some finite entity made of dark matter who at random times manipulates the physical realm in ways that science can't explain... eh.. what i'm getting at is that so what if science does accurately explain event X, what if we can even use science to explain everything that happens in the entire universe!? When a creationist says that God set the world into motion, that doesn't mean that said creationist has to pretend centripetal force and inertia is made up by God-haters and it is actually the physical hand of God spinning the earth and whirling it around the sun... that means said creationist believes that the centripetal force due to gravity is God's doing. This idea can apply to the Big Bang theory as well, even evolution for all I know. When the Bible says that God created the Earth in 6 days and I hear a counter argument that goes something like "oh well the earth was actually formed in x amount of days so explain that" I just say "the hell if I know" because I don't know! Go argue against a fundamentalist! I don't know if the Bible is speaking literally at that instance or not, if so, maybe it really was? who's to say at what point in the earth's creation did God start counting? Who's to set the precise definition of the word "day" in that verse? The point is that there are too many dang variables for anyone to outright dismiss God because of what's in the Book of Genesis, unless YOU are the one reading the Bible like a fundamentalist.
What I personally get from the Bible has absolutely nothing to do with science. You can't just compare science against God like they are two conflicting views of what happens in the universe. From a purely scientific point of view, I'm saying that maybe the deists or agnostics have it right in the sense that God may or may not intervene in the physical world and who the heck knows or even cares if He's actually moving stuff around or not. Worrying over "proving" that He does or does not exists is not the point, because science simply can't do that either way! Its just an endless cycle of opinion.
The Bible isn't intended to leave you worrying about finding tangible evidence for God. Finding God is a heart issue, not a science issue. I think that is what the Bible is all about. :)
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on -
The Bible isn't intended to leave you worrying about finding tangible evidence for God. Finding God is a heart issue, not a science issue. I think that is what the Bible is all about. :)
My 'heart' has been too busy focusing on humanity and our fellow species here on Earth to worry about gods, but I'm glad your god works for your heartly needs. The universe that science can describe is also higher on my list than deities which it supposedly cannot describe. Personally, I don't worry about proving that your God exists in the slightest, nor do I feel any compulsion to disprove Him. Outside the universe in not likely a place I'll ever go in this lifetime, so I'm not too fussed about a being that allegedly exists in such a dimension beyond where natural law or any reliable method of observation can reach. As long as He or His assigns to tread on my toes or intervene in secular law and public policy, I'm not overly concerned about Him.
I would suggest giving this post a more dedicated rewrite so that your message is more concise and coherent. You're at a considerable disadvantage on this site when it comes to numbers, and you're about to receive an onslaught of critical response. From past experience, I'd say that this is going to get messy quickly. I could be wrong though.
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Permalink Reply by Jerod on -
I'm pretty sure you're right. ^
I'll leave it up there anyways. You clearly understood for the most part what I was pitifully trying to put into words, so its good enough for me.
I am curious, though, since you care so little about wasting your time pondering deities, why bother associating yourself with an atheist forum? All this place talks about is God, God, God.
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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on
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I don't worry about the existence of God or overly concern myself with it, but that doesn't mean I don't find it entertaining as a time kill. There are other issues that are commonly explored on this site as well which I find engaging.
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Permalink Reply by Diane on -
One reason I come here is because I am surrounded by Christians in my daily life, and it gets wearying to listen to them and to answer their questions. Being an atheist in the US, I am in a minority and believe me, Christians seem to want to squeeze the atheism right out of me.
I am so concerned with this issue because of the power the Christians have in politics, culture, and law. For instance, I don't want creationism taught as science in my kids' schools, and I don't want right-wing leaning yahoos on the Supreme Court overturning Roe vs. Wade and forcing young women to carry unwanted children to term. I abhor abortion by the way, but I don't want the choice taken away by religious zealots.
I don't care about a god. I just wish Christians would stop trying to shove theirs down my throat. If Christians would just keep it to themselves we'd all be happier. I know when I go to work today that George, my co-worker, is likely to try to tell me more about how he still hold out hope that I will find Jesus, and Dot might tell me again that her god is "bigger than your doubt."
I don't have doubts about god, and I'm not seeking a deity. It gets frustrating trying to tell people that, and it's nice to have reinforcement.
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Permalink Reply by Rod Chlebek on -
It's a reactionary position. If 3/4 of the world believed in aliens there would be much to talk about.
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Permalink Reply by David Schumacher on -
It seems to me that this is just rationalizing the god of the gaps. "See, you can't tell what started the Big Bang so my God could have done it." Dismiss all of the science that has occurred, all the testing and experimentation and then say, "see you can't say exactly how that happened so it could have been my God". It seems every generation finds new ways to dismiss science since Galileo and then they will tell you that that is their god right there.
When you understand that Christianity is a 2000 year old system of rationalization you will understand why your God of the Gaps argument is wrong and the Bible isn't evidence for anything.
You can't prove there is no pink, invisible dragon in my garage either, all you can to is make an endless cycle of opinions.
"The Bible isn't intended to leave you worrying about finding tangible evidence for God. Finding God is a heartissue, not a science issue. I think that is what the Bible is all about. :)" This is true about any and all religions. The Bible is just a anthology of old middle east stories starting with goat herders. Of coarse there is no science in it but when it depicts things that are impossible like talking donkeys you should be suspicious of the whole book. The fact that the God of the Bible is a mean, vindictive child killer should show how much indoctrination it takes to believe such stories.
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Permalink Reply by Jerod on
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I value your input. I'm not sure if your first paragraph recognized what I was trying to say(which would be my fault), but I meant that the God of the gaps argument IS fallacious and is repeatedly being used as a straw man. My own argument is more like 'what if we can prove everything about how the universe started using science, and that just shows how God did it.'...
Anyways I don't know how much of the Bible is literal or not.. i'm no scholar. Maybe things like the talking donkey story are figurative? maybe that was one instance where God actually did perform something that we would deem physically impossible today? maybe the guy was just hearing voices in his head, but they actually were intended by God? Maybe it was just made up? I tend not to jump straight to one conclusion.
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Permalink Reply by Rod Chlebek on
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Why don't you try showing your "argument" in an inductive or deductive form?
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Permalink Reply by Rod Chlebek on
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Sounds harmless. Yeah, science and religion don't go together well, but they're not necessarily a dichotomy.
You should understand though that your reasons for belief are outside of logic.
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