My theory is this: women's lives have improved dramatically in the western world, and it's only a matter of time until they revolt and make things better for themselves elsewhere, religion of course the main thing keeping them in check. However, we are not EQUAL to men , even though we can do what they can do, proven that! But they have not seemed to even try to do what we can do, and I don't mean giving birth! I mean taking equal responsibility for caring for their families. Single mothers and deadbeat dads aside, their stories are tragic and those men are the worst case scenario, but even in your basic family unit, and I saw this on that glass ceiling thread, women have to pick up the childcare side of the household work and this is no easy task. Someone still has to care for the home, or you can use hired help but only if you are rich. Our society does not value women, or "traditional" women's work, and that's why men think its degrading and won't do it, maybe? Anyway, what do you think? Am I being sexist against men, I don't mean to be, but I do wonder if any of them ever feel its unfair that they don't get paternity leave or if their boss gives them a hard time for wanting to stay home with a sick kind, when that's where they know they should be!

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I'm trying to end with a joke there, I know there's a whole lot more to it than that!

RE: "(didn't mitt Romney say women should get that?)"

Every single binder-full --

(THERE'S your joke ending!)

Thank you that's hilarious!
What a loser she is not to support her kids! Sorry, and they are super lucky to have you!

Thank you Erin and after reading my post today, it looks standoffish (is that even a real word? Looks funny.) I didn't mean for it to be. I also realize I didn't talk about the work force. As far as work, I'll take the quick reply route. Women will take over the entire world soon. I already have my cooking apron for my new roll in life, lol.

However, we are not EQUAL to men , even though we can do what they can do, proven that!

For topics such as this, I tend to limit ‘equality’ to equal protection under the law, and equality in opportunity.  I see them as being the most realistically attainable, and ethically appropriate, and prevents the “I can do anything you can do” pissing contest.

But they have not seemed to even try to do what we can do, and I don't mean giving birth! I mean taking equal responsibility for caring for their families…  women have to pick up the childcare side of the household work and this is no easy task.

This is a gross generalization.  From everything I’ve read and seen, the erosion of the nuclear family has spawned a wide variety of “domestic situations”.  Working mothers and stay at home dads are more common, as is more equal custody time for divorced couples with children.  We would probably see more single fathers, and equality in shared custody if the legal system wasn’t still mired in the “traditional values” stereotypes of “nurturing mother” and “provider father”, but then legal change usually follows social change, and not the other way around.

Our society does not value women, or "traditional" women's work, and that's why men think its degrading and won't do it

Another over-generalization.  While older generations and the more fundamentally religious groups tend to cling more to the “traditional” role stereotypes, more and more people are adapting to the needs of the changing social and economic climate.  Far bigger problems in this regard (and in general) are the culture of entitlement and instant gratification that infects both genders these days, and classist bias that is heavily influenced by race.

I do wonder if any of them ever feel its unfair that they don't get paternity leave or if their boss gives them a hard time for wanting to stay home with a sick kind, when that's where they know they should be!

If they don’t, then they should.  To achieve true equality, there should be a legal restructuring that focuses on: 

-a return in focus to well rounded K-12 education instead of tracked education,

-equality in availability of student loans and education grants,

-equality in hiring/wage/promotion/bonus practices based on merit and ability,

-equality in paternity/materinity leave and other benefits,

-equality in divorce and child custoday procedings, with strict enforcement of perjury statues during them,

-equality in social services for health and welfare.

Feminists and MRAs both have their criticisms; dead beat dads, hypergamous gold-diggers, wage disparity in favor of men, divorce/child custody laws in favor of women, blaming the victim tendencies in situations of rape, false accusations of rape, domestic abuse against women, the lack of support for men who are victims of domestic abuse… and the list goes on.  The problem is that in many cases the criticisms are simply parroted generalizations and stereotypes, and little more than a spleen vent against “the other”.

I see these issues being handled more effectively by broadening the scope to include ethnicity, sexuality, gender identity, and socioeconomic classism.  It helps to prevent an ‘us vs. them’ entrenchment, and gives proper focus to problems that have solutions in a far larger arena.

Egad, sorry about the length of this reply.

Nice post, Obfuskation. 

I agree, very good post. On my fridge I have a sticker that says No one is free while others are oppressed, I see it every day and I try to think of what that means to me and how I can make a difference. I hear racist remarks and put downs towards both genders and see how this is acceptable for some, and try not to do the same thing myself. I appreciate how sharing some views on here can shine a light on where they are maybe a little bit off, where I am biased, and help me to think about issues more clearly. I'd like to explore the idea that some people mentioned about how men who choose to do things that are considered feminine, or even act in a feminine way are put down by some. The idea that people who are not fitting into gender roles are not okay, is this part of the hatred towards homosexuals? I really don't get why anyone would be against gay marriage! And for homosexual couples raising children, they must negotiate a way to decide who's going to do what, how do they do that? Maybe we can learn something from their experiences, if its working... Again, each person or relationship is going to be different, so we can't say they all do this or they all do that. Anyone have any insight into this?

I'd like to explore the idea that some people mentioned about how men who choose to do things that are considered feminine, or even act in a feminine way are put down by some. The idea that people who are not fitting into gender roles are not okay, is this part of the hatred towards homosexuals?

Regarding the former, I think it is part of the friction of evolving out of the traditional role mindset.  Change always involves some sort of conflict.  People just need to remember that they only get so much time in their life, and they should spend it doing things that make them happy, not things that other people necessarily approve of.  As more people do it, and it becomes the norm, there will be less conflict.
Regarding the latter, it is interesting that studies show that homophobia tends to manifest in people who have homosexual tendencies, but are suppressing their natural urges due to being raised in “conservative” households.  Then, of course, there are the ‘holy’ books and their fundamentalist adherents.

And for homosexual couples raising children, they must negotiate a way to decide who's going to do what, how do they do that?

They do like every other couple should be doing, they talk about what needs to be done, and agree on a plan on how to do it.

Again, each person or relationship is going to be different, so we can't say they all do this or they all do that. Anyone have any insight into this?

Since each person and relationship is different, different couples are going to have different methods to do the same thing.  Like most things, there is an arc including methods that are more common, branching to those that are ‘unconventional’.  A good example of ‘unconventional’ is the couple that constantly argues and bitches back and forth, often in the middle of social activities that make everybody else uncomfortable.  While it can be tedious for their friends, it works for them.

One of my favorite things about life is the fantastic variety between individuals and cultures, and the wealth of different things brought about by that variety.  I think that the best way to navigate all of those differences, and enjoy them, is with respect, communication, and patience.  Also, remembering that those differences are far more superficial than the things that make us the same.

Ugh, looks like my day for long posts.

I enjoy them, thanks!

I agree with the last few sentences of your article: things like maternity leave should be paralleled for men. 

As far as the rest of it, I'm not really sure what you are implying needs to be done. If men are legitimately less interested than women in being homekeepers (and I think in general, they are), then what is the problem with the current state of the modern family?

Being "equal" doesn't mean being the same. It means having the same opportunities, and even with equality of opportunity, sociological forces will still shape the family into a unit with different roles. I mean, you wouldn't say it's unfair that women don't get penises, would you? The different sexes are fundamentally different (not unequal).

Hi Erin - I posted this recently in Unseen's "glass ceiling" post. You might like it.

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