Will women ever be equal until men change?

My theory is this: women's lives have improved dramatically in the western world, and it's only a matter of time until they revolt and make things better for themselves elsewhere, religion of course the main thing keeping them in check. However, we are not EQUAL to men , even though we can do what they can do, proven that! But they have not seemed to even try to do what we can do, and I don't mean giving birth! I mean taking equal responsibility for caring for their families. Single mothers and deadbeat dads aside, their stories are tragic and those men are the worst case scenario, but even in your basic family unit, and I saw this on that glass ceiling thread, women have to pick up the childcare side of the household work and this is no easy task. Someone still has to care for the home, or you can use hired help but only if you are rich. Our society does not value women, or "traditional" women's work, and that's why men think its degrading and won't do it, maybe? Anyway, what do you think? Am I being sexist against men, I don't mean to be, but I do wonder if any of them ever feel its unfair that they don't get paternity leave or if their boss gives them a hard time for wanting to stay home with a sick kind, when that's where they know they should be!

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Permalink Reply by Erin on November 12, 2012 at 1:27am
Sorry sick kid not sick kind
Permalink Reply by Dr.Grixis on November 12, 2012 at 9:41am

Well, I don't know about what will happen when my girlfriend and I will raise a child together, but at the moment I do most of the things that could be considered "traditional" women's work. I think that most of my male friends from the Netherlands tend to do more of the domestic chores than their female partners.

However, if I were to talk to some of my older relatives, especially the generation of my grandparents, they have very strict ideas about what the genders should, and should not do.

Men need to emancipate themselves from the gender stereotypes just like women do, it's just that the negative effects of those stereotypes are less pronounced and less damaging to men (in general). But as time goes by and more and more men decide for themselves what it means to be a man, the less these stereotypes will hold true. It does require that men and women stand up for themselves especially versus the older generations and the more conservative inclined people.

A long time ago, when my grandfather came to visit my place, he and my uncle were making fun of my kitchen (full of herbs, spices, oils etc.) and how clean and tidy the place was. "When are you coming out of the closet?", he asked me. So I replied to him that I am comfortable enough with my own sexuality to not be frightened by the idea of doing "women's" work, but that I understood that such confidence is not for all, and that continuous enforcement of gender stereotypes is necessary for those people whom are unsure and uncomfortable about their own sexuality.

That has since become sort of my standard reply to whomever is ignorant enough to think that my sexuality is linked to me doing the work that is tradtionally thought of as "women's" work, it does work quite well, nobody ever brings up the subject more than once.

Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on November 12, 2012 at 9:48am

Nice one

Permalink Reply by onyango makagutu on November 12, 2012 at 10:57am

To say two people can be equal to me I think is an exaggeration. The only cause we can fight for or that we can hope for is equity where there is equal opportunity for every one, fair treatment and so on but not equality. I don't think it is even possible for identical twins to be equal

Permalink Reply by Nikos Mika on November 12, 2012 at 11:16am

First off let me say that Erin is my wife (she beats me....jk lol) and we have some differences of opinions on feminism etc. While i do agree that many men do need to re-think and redefine what it is to be a "man" in our modern age, I also think that it is a change that many women need too. I think society is slowly getting to the point where gender roles are what we make of them but has a long way to go. For instance a lot of traditionally male jobs, such as the trades, are run by people that are of the mindset that when a child is sick or has an appointment it should be the mother that takes care of it. I also feel that we can never be truly equal, one parent has to play more of a nurturer, which makes them more available as a confidant, and the other more of a disciplinarian. This doesn't mean that the nurturer never lays down the law or doesn't stand wholly behind their partner or vice versa... I personally would like to be able to take time off work when my kid is sick but my employer is a redneck who seems to be very oldschool with gender roles.

 As far as work around the home I feel that in many homes men tend to take on jobs that can be very time consuming (long hours) to bring home decent paychecks and therefore have less time to do a lot of what was considered "women's work" not to mention that in general one person tends to have the skills that are required for house hold maintenance. Obviously this is not always the case, in some homes neither have that skill set or both do etc. So in this way I think things are equal yet different, in a home where both have these skills I think that most modernly thinking couples will share the work as evenly as is possible.

I also disagree that men aren't trying to do what women have traditionally done. An example is nursing which used to be predominantly women or secretarial work, we are seeing more men in these roles. In all reality things are fairly decent in the western world but we do need to keep the ball rolling, we must not allow things to stop changing and become stagnant. I would also put it out there that as more people become atheist more equality will be seen in the home, most religious groups are very strong in gender roles....

Permalink Reply by Strega on November 12, 2012 at 12:58pm

What do you think happens in gay and lesbian households?  Do you think both guys compete for cooking time? Do both women compete for job income?  No, you know that's not how it works.

When you have two adults in a 'team' arrangement, it makes sense for them to individually organise their team to their own best advantage.  Trust me, the traditionally male activity of mowing the lawn does not use a different set of muscles to the female activity of vacuuming a house.  A barbeque outdoors or a kitchen indoors - both places of cooking.

I agree with Onyango, that it is equality of pay that is important.  You cannot have a fair society where the paycheck is geared around what is in your pants, rather than what is in your head.

I don't think society is in a place where there is a requirement for men and women to be "the same".  That is not what equality is all about.  I think that as long as the interface between a person or company or government does not favour gender, we can work the rest out privately.

I knew a guy who was a proud house-husband.  I take my hat off to him for being so open about it.  Contraceptives, taxation, benefits and salary have no business being gender-specific.

If a woman feels that her 'traditional' role is in the home taking care of the domestics, why should she not do so?  Society can't change that by some kind of rule or law. 

I see that 'society' seems to simply support the majority way as being the social norm.  So why don't we focus on eliminating discrimination from a financial perspective, and see where that takes us first.

archaeopteryxPermalink Reply by archaeopteryx on November 13, 2012 at 2:44pm

Yeah, all the hookers would get a good laugh --

archaeopteryxPermalink Reply by archaeopteryx on November 12, 2012 at 1:15pm

I don't feel you're being sexist, Erin, but I do think you're making an all-encompassing assumption. Not all men feel or act that way. But to cut you some slack, though not all of us are knuckle-draggers, far too many of us are.

Permalink Reply by kOrsan on November 12, 2012 at 1:23pm

Yeah, only men have to change for you to be equal. Makes sense.

Permalink Reply by BryanPaul on November 12, 2012 at 1:41pm

Are you being sexist? Maybe. You're views are surely slanted in from the woman's point of view.

Lets look at it from the guy's side. First let me say,  I'm a single dad that raise a daughter from one year old, held a full time job and went to college full time so I personally did my part. As far as guys go, how many women do you know that would date a guy that when asked "what do you do for a living" replies "oh, I'm a house dad" this would be acceptable? This is an acceptable and even admirable answer for women. That's a double standard. If you mean husbands that don't help with the kids, all my friends hold their kids to much! This is considering that the one that are not at war or working offshore, are working 80 hours a week.

There is so much about children's live that dads miss out on I'd like to end on this, when a marriage end in divorce, who usually gets custody? So dads don't just loose wives, they loose children.

The truth is parts of every relationship slants one way or the other. In the end men do in all honesty get more free time that women but women get the memories. To me this makes guys dumb. What is more important the 2012 super bowl or your kids championship game or their first steps?

Bye the way, in 18 years I managed to get $100 in child support from my ex. A guy wouldn't be so lucky. I think it levels out in the end. Just my opinion.

Permalink Reply by Erin on November 12, 2012 at 2:37pm
I hope this means I'm replying to everyone, and thanks to all for very good points. The word equal doesn't seem to fit, maybe that's not the right thing to say. Maybe equally valuable but different, which is what I think all citizens in an ideal world should be. This brings up thoughts of how people should NOT be valued just because of what they can give or do, but just because they are. And I hate hasty generalizations, so to start off my discussion with one was rather foolish. What I think would be nice is if women had a choice about what to do with their lives, be it caring for their home, children, etc, or pursuing a career or whatever they want as long as they don't hurt anyone else. I also think men should have that same choice and not be looked down for making it. Of course every relationship is different, and each member of that relationship will have to define that, and hopefully it wouldn't be a matter of keeping track, like I get ten points for earning fifty bucks, and five points for each night I do the laundry, etc... To decide who is "equal" in such a way would be a horrible way to live, and ridiculous, and probably lead to the breakup of a relationship.
I think communication and mutual respect are necessary for individuals within a relationship to feel equally valuable.
I guess what I mean by men changing is actually society's view on men as being good for nothing but earning and fixing stuff is really what needs to change. Maybe men need to stand up for their rights, not to oppress women again, but to demand time off to go and cook dinner for their families ( didn't mitt Romney say women should get that?)
Permalink Reply by Erin on November 12, 2012 at 2:39pm
I'm trying to end with a joke there, I know there's a whole lot more to it than that!

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