Hello all,

I never understood this. My family is Jewish. You'd think I would be pro-israel, but I'm not. 

Why should the Jewish people be allowed to invade another country simply because of religious context? Because of World War II? The Holocaust? They are not the only people in the world to suffer. We are now putting Palestine's people in the way of death and war. Aren't we? 

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I was raised Jewish. But I will not be blinded by that fact. I will not say "these are my people and they are right." 

It's not in America's long term interest to support one side or the other. It's a terribly expensive game with little benefit to the US or the religion. Both sides are guilty of endless gross violations of human rights and attacks on human dignity, pointless hostilities and illegal activity, vicious violence and a complete inability to compromise and seriously work towards a solution. Any decent researcher could start up an accounting ballance sheet and find that neither side is more guilty or innocent than the other in terms of full out misery inflicting (both on the other side and on their own people) all serving nothing other than a religious world view

Why should a developed western country take sides in what is ultimately a totally religious conflict with both sides using religion as a reason to attack, discriminate, kill and oppress the other side?

I have to agree with @Davis.

If you must find a reason to support Israel, though, I suppose it's because they're a stable democracy and staunch ally in the middle of a region full of dictators and groups more inimical to the U.S. in particular and western liberty in general.

That is exactly why I am curious why America is Pro-Israel. The only thing I can put my finger on is the fear of Radical Islam and by having an Ally in Israel, they have a foot in the door with the middle east. 


"...seriously work towards a solution."

And the solution is???

Not using religious division as an excuse for the inexcusable
Two states with fair division and territorial autonomy (the impossible dream of unity far off into the 54th century
No shooting and blowing up civilians (or anyone for that matter).

Neither side is currently capable of reaching this because the war was 50 years ago...it has nothing to do with that any more but religious nationalism, international chess games and religious extremism. Wihtout the co-dependency...you don't have a forum for religious extremism.

Essentially, The Palestinians and the Jews, genitally and historically, are the same people.

The Jews, Christians and Muslims, are ALL from there...and, therefore, all have a claim to it.

The British, who OWNED it, after WWII meant many Jews were homeless, did not want the Jews going to Britain, and, GAVE THEM "Israel" as a Jewish homeland....supported by the biblical reasons for them to return there, so it had Christian support.

Jews, Christians, Muslims, all lived in Israel, and, intermarried, had businesses together, and in general, were getting along as they had been for centuries.

SOME Muslims felt that Israel should not have been given to the jews, as it was really there's....so, they started to blow up school buses of kids, kill Jews, etc, in a wave of terrorism.

The Jews tried stopping them with normal police type activities, but, the terrorists were too easily able to counter that as they were indistinguishable from everyone else.

The Jews then started to limit where Muslims could go, and riots and more fighting broke out, and, things went downhill from there...escalating into "us vs Them" mentalities...as the dead and their relatives wanted revenge on the other side's survivors, ad infinitum.

So, the Muslims who wanted the place all to themselves and to oust the infidels, ended up being prosecuted for terrorism, enraging them into more acts of terrorism.

The Jews, as the US troops in Vietnam, and others in analogous conflicts have always done when the bad guys all look like one group, that can also contain good guys...starts to shoot proportionally, further encouraging more Muslims to fight the tyranny.

When most of the surrounding states attacked Israel, to destroy it/drive them into the sea, etc...Israel fought back , and, won, and KEPT the land it fought back as far as....to keep as a buffer zone, so the enemy would have to get past a larger area before being able to reach the rest again.

Israel's KEEPING of the buffer zone, meant that the Muslims LOST ground when they tried to kill the Jews, instead of getting ALL of it.

They then cried foul, and demanded Israel give them the land back...and, Israel said something along the lines of "no".

To make the buffer zone work, they added settlements...which now meant more Jews on more land that the attackers lost trying to get ALL the land, with NO Jews on it.

So, the Israelis think of the attacks and want that buffer zone, and the ones who attacked them want the land back and the Jews all dead.

So, to help make the Jews leave/be dead, they started launching rockets and shells, etc, into Israel.

Israel said, stop, or we will fight back, and, the attackers said, essentially "no", and continued, so Israel went into the countries where the rockets and shells were coming from, to stop them.

They stopped them, but, now the attackers complained that Israel had invaded them.

And so on, and so forth.

So, by this point, everybody in the freekin sand box had a loved one killed by some other group in the sand box, and demanded revenge, and, there didn't seem to be a solution ALL could agree upon.

Israel said it would stop fighting if people stopped attacking. The attackers say they won't stop attacking until all the Jews leave.

My own thought on all this, is that Britain should not have given the Jews the land.

Sure, it was legal, and, from a legal perspective, they had the right to do it...but, it was seemingly oblivious to the religions and people's who ALL considered it to be "theirs".

So, if you go in order of ownership as religious groups go, Jews had it first, then Christians, with Muslims last.

If you go in order of "peoples" the Jews and Palestinians' claims are identical...and some Coptic Christians, etc, who's ancestors had ALSO been there since that time, ALSO could make an identical claim.

So, ideally, Britain would have done nothing at all, and let the Jews go where they may, etc....and not lit the fuse in the Middle East.

Second best might have been giving it to all three groups to run as they saw fit....albeit with the current climate, that would likely lead to the Muslims still wanting all of it....so, no real solution.

IF Muslims would drop their EXCLUSIVE claims, a peace could be reached, as all three groups with historical claims could remain.

IF Muslims CONTINUE their exclusive claims, then, only appeasement would work, and, it sets a dangerous precedent, as, the terrorists then know whatever they want, they get, or they go to war.

As to US interests...we consider Israel to be the only democracy in the middle east, and, the more sane of our relations there...but, our very support fuels additional NEED for our support, in a weapons spiral.

IF we "dump them", it sends the message that being an ally of the US means we might abandon you...a message we have sent before, and, one which this one in particular would send many to Russia or China as allies instead of the US.

The US can't win either in this regard.

A dump and effort to rebuild trust would mean 100 years or so of repercussions.

NOT dumping and rebuilding international relations would as well though, and, has no end point/exist strategy.

The ONLY exit strategy that could, theoretically 'work" is if radical Islam disappeared.

Because of it, there are no diplomatic solutions, only war.


That's a good summary, but don't ignore the contributions of Harry Truman and the US contribution https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel The USA does not have the clean hands you intimate above :)

The ONLY exit strategy that could, theoretically 'work" is if radical Islam disappeared.

I agree that is one essential element necessary. They pointless violence and stone-age-regressivism of near sharia like controll in many communities and their agenda to bulldoze Israel and Israelis into the sea...is descructive, needless, horrific and one thousand percent inexcusable and an absolute unwaivering roadblock towards any solution.

...but you left out the other condition. You forgot about the ultra-radical-fundamentalist-orthodox-jews. They're just as menacing, as ruthless in the treatment of women, children, LGTB and secularists in their communities, bring destruction and pointless violence, manipulate Israeli politics, family law, settlements and other toxic policies and human-rights-exemptions in ways almost as bad as Hesbola in Palestine and openly say they won't stop until all of the Levant is theirs. Sound familiar?

The radical factions on both sides create an insurmountable barrier that stands in the way of any solution.

The extremist jews were OK before the extremist muslims started killing people....but, yeah, as I said, both sides more or less need the other to die or leave at his point.

If the Jewish Hawks disappeared, the extremist muslims would still try to kill all the Jews.

If all the extremist muslims disappeared, the extremist jews would shut up and go back to praying to allah and trying to get others to turn on the lights on saturdays, etc...

Its a forum post not a thesis, but, yeah, The US, etc, all had something to do with it, BUT, it was BRITAIN'S to give away.

So, that makes the extremist muslims the key.

"So, that makes the extremist muslims the key."

True, and (imo) moderate Muslims are another group that needs to gain empowerment over extremism... before some like Trump or other haters just try to kill ALL of them.

If all the extremist muslims disappeared, the extremist jews would shut up and go back to praying

Give me a bloody break. Palestinian appologists say the same nonsense about "extremist-jews building settlements on their land". If the radical even violent and provoking extreemist-jews left their illegal settlements and went away and their political party stopped blocking attempts at a resolution...the muslim extreemists would go away.

No. Neither the extreemist Jews nor extreemist Muslims would go away simply because their extreemist counterpart went away. There's all those other gazillion layers of chronic defunction. Besides...the extreemists on both sides utterly devoted to annihalating the other side regardless of the immense suffering for them and their enemies. Hesbolah and the ultra-orthadox party do everything they can to stop a two state solution.


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