I know they can't do much but they are nnot doctors and they are delusionned by their own belief . Still he baffled me they never answer the riddle of the amputed?

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Interesting---you have no problem with kinetic energy, but somehow seem to deny potential energy.  A boulder at the top of a mountain has potential energy.  Let the boulder fall and hit you on the head and you have just been the victim of the conversion of potential energy into kinetic energy--i.e. pain or death.

Here's a true story which happened to me.  My friend was pregnant and had a sore back.  She asked me to massage her spine around a particular point.  Just as she exclaimed and said "that's better", I felt a buzz of energy like electricity go into my fingers.  She said that it had un-knotted something. This is a sensation I've never felt before or since. 

So, Heather, you want evidence of something that happened in the past, which has not been recorded to the degree of scientific research (my claim about being a faith healer in the past), when I suggest you gather evidence on current events (other currently practising faith healers), you can't be bothered, and when I suggest you fight the (probably international) legal battle to acquire the evidence of what happened in the past, you can't be bothered? I don't care at all if you believe my claims, what I care about is people coming to a conclusion, then not looking for, or ignoring all available data. That pisses me right off. Congratulations on your bigotry.

There is no international legal conspiracy to hide the evidence.  James Randi's foundation has investigated many faith healers over the years and found all claims to be bullshit.  Looking for scientific papers on the subject, one can occasionally find one but they are usually noting the psychological effects of belief on healing - I've never seen one that documented any physical changes beyond expectations for the condition and medical treatment prescribed.

I've lived with Christians, as a Christian, in environments where this bullshit was touted as being very matter-of-fact, but even then I never saw anything miraculous.  People liked to ignore the fact that the person was undergoing medical treatments, or perhaps that their cataracts weren't nearly as bad as they claimed when they got up on stage and claimed to be near-blind.

You come here claiming there are studies out there - and in the next breath say there is a conspiracy that hides all these studies.  You say your stuff was scientifically studied, then admit you were full of shit when you said that.  We've seen your kind before, you know - and you are all full of shit.  The pattern is always the same - and yet I always waste my time by opening asking, sincerely, for the evidence that you start out claiming exists - only to be lead down the garden path of being told it is my fault that the evidence doesn't exist.

Sorry you feel that way Heather. The point I am trying to make is this should be studied more, and fairly. I do not believe the JRF studies it fairly at all, but I'd like to talk to them.

Psychological effects of belief on healing, that's a good place to start, but we should go further!

I've never seen a scientific paper on that either, but I have seen medical records showing it, and I've never met a doctor who is willing to comment or speculate on the medical records. I'm not sure that means it is a conspiracy, it is just what I've observed.

Yes, there is a LOT of bullshit on this topic. I completely agree. I don't know if the evidence (scientific papers) exist, I've seen the evidence (medical records), I don't know if that's "good enough" for you, and I'm sorry you haven't seen it.

What would it take for you to go from disbelief, to curiosity? I may not be able to supply (legal reasons etc.), but I can try my best.

I've seen the evidence (medical records),

You have seen the evidence that a person has recovered from an illness or you have seen the evidence that a person has been cured by your “hands on” energy transfer technique?

Any shred of valid evidence will suffice for now. I can get you legal advice if you need it.

Please give specifics of the medical records that you've seen showing the results of faith healing.  You can exclude the patient's name, but I am curious how you got your hands on their medical records without any doctor being willing to comment on them.  I would like details of the diagnosis, what sort of supporting tests were done and how they were documented, and who interpreted those records for you or how you became proficient in, say, reading an x-ray film.

I'm positive you'll just shoot back more bullshit - like having signed some oath of non-disclosure or whatever.  You've already laid the seeds of that retreat with your bullshit line about 'legal reasons etc'.

The problem with you people is you've spent so much time in evangelical circles where it is taboo to question any claim, that you no longer have any idea just how transparent your bullshit is to everyone.

I don't need any one claiming that they have healed by faith.  Just the concept is absurd.  There is no such thing as faith healing.  BTW, what exactly do you have faith in?

So, Heather, you want evidence... 

Yeah, she does. So do I. So does every reasonable person here. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Absent that evidence, there's nothing to consider, so: dismissed.

when I suggest you gather evidence on current events (other currently practising faith healers), you can't be bothered,

That's a burden of proof fallacy. It's your claim, so you have to produce the evidence, not Heather, not me, not anyone else.

and when I suggest you fight the (probably international) legal battle to acquire the evidence of what happened in the past, you can't be bothered?

That's right. It's all on you. Tell the world you've invented cold fusion, discovered life on Mars, or found a colony of undersea gnomes in forbidden North Korean waters, and the world says: show me. If you fail to produce the slightest shred of evidence to back your claim-- or even more incredibly, demand that the world does your homework for you-- the world's not going to oblige you. You fully own the bother. If you were too stupid to bother at the proper time, and still refuse to bother now, start bothering. Come back when you're done bothering and you've got scientific evidence to show for it.

I don't care at all if you believe my claims,

The hard sell makes it rather difficult to believe you don't care at all about it.

what I care about is people coming to a conclusion, then not looking for, or ignoring all available data.

My conclusions are that (1) you haven't provided any data, (2) the burden of proof for providing the data is yours, and (3) that is not me ignoring evidence, (4) it is your failure to provide any. All of those conclusions are correct. So there is nothing to evaluate.

That pisses me right off. Congratulations on your bigotry.

This is the part where the crackpot begins the standard outraged caterwauling about unfairness and persecution. How dare we ask him to support his claims. Up next: the crackpot ignores the substance of each point and launches the usual blizzard of obfuscation.

Generally speaking, the reason these crackpots think they can heal is that they've found a gullible audience of people willing to go to any length to keep their and their healer's credulity suspended.

One lady who actually has cataracts and slightly reduced sight will go up to the stage and break down emotionally as she says her sight is far worse than she has been letting-on.  Although this is likely true, her vision is never as bad as she will then reveal on stage.  After being the center of attention for a while, being allowed to fake a few seizures and act like a loon, she'll hop up and cry out that she can see - that it is a miracle.  In point of fact, she still can't see any better than when she took the stage, but everyone is willing to accept her bullshit claim as evidence that the faith healer has done something - and the faith healer takes this as confirmation.

Sometimes stooges are employed to fain bullshit ailments, and sometimes legitimately ill people approach.  If the person can't be healed, well the fault is their own lack of faith.  Proof that the magic works comes from the stooges and various malingering members of the congregation.  In the end, stories of mundane healings are hyperbolated, details added, and eventually you've got some loon like our new member here telling us about scientific studies, er, medical records, er, iron clad testimony from upstanding citizens, er, well, actually maybe just some vague, wishful memories.

they don't. They do however know that people of faith are the easiest to fool to giving up money..actually not jus tmoney in everything

In many (most?) cases, the faith healers themselves have succumbed to the socially transmitted and maintained delusion.  Human perception and memory are very imperfect and prone to all kinds of failures and distortions.  Human cognitive processing suffers from similar limitations and aberrations. 

It is unfair to assume that Steve Fraser is lying.  He is most likely just as deluded about his previous abilities as his observers and "patients".  He "feels" and they "feel" that things are different.  The known force of psychosomatic healing is presumed to be "caused" by the faithhealer than by the hypnotic suggestions implanted by that person in a trance supportive environment.

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