Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on July 23, 2012 at 3:22pm

In the long run, breaking a few eggs is far better for social harmony than letting the whole kitchen burn.  Had the Finnish prime minister chose to avoid implementing his measures that 'pissed everyone off' he would have only been passing the buck down the line and creating even greater turmoil.  In his case, doing the right thing meant x-amount of social turmoil in the present to offset 2x-amount social turmoil in the future.

Long term social harmony doesn't require keeping everyone happy all the time, it just means finding a balance that optimizes social harmony over the long term.  Passing the buck should is rarely optimum, and I feel that this is where modern democracy fails.

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on July 23, 2012 at 3:47pm

Heather  -  I agree with that. 

Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on July 24, 2012 at 4:29pm

I agree that it's right to take responsibility if it's yours to take.  Failure to do so "is rarely optimum", and is therefore a moral failing.  Even if things work out in the hands of someone else, it's wrong to be cowardly. 

Permalink Reply by Unseen on July 20, 2012 at 7:05pm

Let me be Ayn Rand for a minute. You are essentially asking something like "Isn't it better for everyone to get something than for someone (oneself for example) to get it all" (most extreme case).

Our fellow atheist Ms. Rand would say that in a compromise (where everyone gets some and loses some), nobody really gets the satisfaction of being the winner. Thus, to her mind, compromises are anathema.

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Permalink Reply by SteveInCO on July 21, 2012 at 4:43am

I think this proceeds from a misunderstanding of what Ayn Rand was talking about when she complained about compromise.

If it's a matter of deciding what movie to go see when going with a group of people, it's not a "bad" compromise to agree to watch what your friend or significant other wants to see.

Ayn Rand found compromise on her principles to be anathema, which is quite different from insisting on seeing the movie you most want to see.  It's also quite different from insisting on gobbling up all the goodies no matter how many dead bodies you have to tread on, which is a grotesque caricature of Randian egoism.  That is because (and this will also more directly address Heather's point), simply taking things from other people because you are stronger than they are and can get away with it, would be a violation of her principles; she was a strong believer in individual rights and in the necessity of respecting them.

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on July 23, 2012 at 11:07am

We need to stand up for our rights too, not just wait for them to be respected. 

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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on July 21, 2012 at 5:59pm

Actually Simon, it is often said that if you come up with a compromise that NObody likes, it's probably a fair and just compromise, with no particular faction gaining advantage.

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on July 21, 2012 at 6:58pm

"I can't get me no...SATISFACTION" — Mick Jagger

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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on July 21, 2012 at 7:15pm

Maybe you're using the wrong do-it-yourself kit - have you tried the other hand?

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on July 22, 2012 at 2:27am

But surely everyone prefers to end up with the best possible outcome for themselves, and if they have a sense of fairness, what's fairest for everyone.  

If nobody likes the compromise then surely it's not a good solution.  The idea is to find one that everyone's happy with. 

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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on July 22, 2012 at 3:14am

I don't mean to sound sarcastic Simon, but good luck with that --

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on July 22, 2012 at 4:12pm

archaeopteryx  -  I don't necessarily mean an outcome where everyone gets everything they were hoping for, but one where everyone feels that fairness has been achieved, at least for themselves.  Sometimes some or all members of the group will seek fairness not just for themselves but for everyone in the group. 

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