I use to be a full on christian(see my blog ect for more background) I just wanted to type down the reasons in my head that made me deconvert and see what made others do it too!?
For me it was not the whole Creation Vs Evolution as I was one of those Christians who believed in evolution ect.
So what did open my eyes to the truth?
The main thing for me was the logic of god and how its just doesn't stack up. And if there was a god it certainly wasn't one i would want to follow... So my following points are all on the assumption that as the bible says god is all knowing, loving and powerful. so why this all powerful, knowing and loving god:
Those are just two quick examples out of many more.
Secondly was the bible. Even when i did not take the bible literally e.g adam and eve ect.. there are certain contradictions and points that simply dont work. Remembering that gods word was the same 'then, today and forever more'
again just a few quick ones from long list! I wish not to bore you! So what made you guys stop believing?
Not believing in a god does not have to be the starting point for a system of thought. I am an atheist and I do not sit around trying to figure out the logic of any beliefs arising from a negative.
It does not trouble me in the least. and by the way, I am a very happy and content person (other than detesting all religion)
I have never heard a theist give me any reason whatsoever for believing in a god. Your starting point of assuming that a god exists and proceeding from there strikes me as exceedingly simplistic and naive. I will say one thing for it though. Saves a lot of wear and tear on the brain cells.
Not believing in a god does not have to be the starting point for a system of thought.
Of course not. In fact, I would argue that it can't be the starting point for a system of thought.
So what is?
I have never heard an atheist give me any reason for believing in anything else but God. Your starting point of assuming that a god does not exist seems to me to be juvenile rebellion which proceeds nowhere. It offers no inspiration, it offers no grounding for common ethics, no impetus to self-sacrifice, no obligation to compassion, no hope or courage in adversity, no solace in grieving, no long-term basis for society, no rationale for personal improvement, no obligation to Justice, no foundation for science or natural law... save only those things that you borrow from religious culture, wittingly or (usually) not.
It's amusing pasttime in sophomoric deconstruction, sure. It's just not a useful theory or system of thought.
So to return to the original subject of the thread, that's why I haven't stopped believing. Atheism does not offer a subjectively or objectively more successful alternative.
Gallap's Mirror sees everything as being equivalent to a scientific claim, to establish a strawman that he can pull canned well documented proses on you that everyone knows and yawns at.
@ Gallop's Mirror:
Some yawnable background for you:
Arguments for and against the existence of God have been proposed by philosophers, theologians, scientists, and others for thousands of years. In philosophical terms, such arguments involve primarily the disciplines of epistemology (the nature and scope of knowledge) and ontology (study of the nature of being, existence, or reality) and also the theory of value, since concepts of perfection are connected to notions of God. A wide variety of arguments exist which can be categorized as metaphysical, logical, empirical, or subjective. The existence of God is subject to lively debate in philosophy, the philosophy of religion, and popular culture.
The Western tradition of philosophical discussion of the existence of God began with Plato and Aristotle, who made arguments that would now be categorized as cosmological. Other arguments for the existence of God have been proposed by St. Anselm, who formulated the first ontological argument; Ibn Rushd (Averroes) and Aquinas, who presented their own versions of the cosmological argument (the kalam argument and the first way, respectively); Descartes, who said that the existence of a benevolent God was logically necessary for the evidence of the senses to be meaningful; and Immanuel Kant, who argued that the existence of God can be deduced from the existence of good. Thinkers who have provided arguments against the existence of God include David Hume, Kant, Nietzsche, and Bertrand Russell. In modern culture, the question of God's existence has been discussed by scientists such as Stephen Hawking, Francis Collins, Richard Dawkins, and John Lennox, as well as philosophers including Richard Swinburne, Alvin Plantinga, William Lane Craig, Daniel Dennett, Edward Feser, and David Bentley Hart.
Atheists generally maintain that arguments for the existence of God provide insufficient reason to believe.
And frankly many conclude that God exists or don't exist based on none of the above.
Yet many things are used from the above to support personalized rationales even as you propose by grouping any sort of claim as requiring a proof.
Formal structured proofs can not be applied to belief.
A proof of an existential belief borders on being an oxymoron. since once it is proven, it is no longer a belief but rather a fact.
You can ask the question, "what is your personalized rational for the existential belief in God" One answer maybe the acceptence of eye wittness testimony as documented in the bible. Another reason maybe personally experiencing the miraculous. Others may feel that God speaks to them in the form of answered prayers. Others may feel that their lives have been blessed since they try to live morally in accordance with God's ordinances. Yet others may lay claim to all of the aforementioned.
The mere fact that people feel they can do a wholote of bad things, ask someone for forgivness & aim/hope to end up somewhere in the sky (heaven) laced with gold, just seems all stupid and ignorant.
I would agree. Even as a Christian, I would say that is stupid and ignorant.
I think the FATAL mistake that Xians make is the belief that they can go on "sinning" and feel confident they will be saved. We are and will be held accountable and I believe in Karma. Just because one might get the General Admission ticket through believing in the Son of God, doesn't mean they get any crowns or tickets to the box seats.
First thing that must happen is to clear up what it means to "SIN".
According to indepth study of what it means to be WICKED/EVIL/UNCLEAN/LAWLESS. This is the definition of SIN.
We all fall short of the Glory of God and in order to understand WHY "Jesus" died on the cross, the first thing to do is to gain a complete understanding of what it says about
curses in the OT. Yup, sorry there is NO WAY to understand anything about anything in Scripture unless BOTH OT and NT are studied, but first the OT must be learned. It is mandatory and THIS is WHY Xianity fails and THIS is WHY people leave their faith.
If anyone believes I am wrong, then prove me wrong and study it out.
It is a miracle that you have a rational brain to come to such a conclusion if it came from a universe that sprang from nothing, then proceeded to be fine tuned for life with you living a goldilocks zone having parameters such that if they were off in in the 22nd decimal place life would be impossible with scientist insisting that you evolved from lower forms despite there being a stalk dearth of transitional forms and a contradictory genetic record if any.
The only evidence stated by Christians is inadmissible:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
If I accept the premise that God is invisible then I am compelled to take all the above as evidence, no matter how irrational or illogical it is. We are specks on the sands of time, our arms are to short to box with either miracles of nature or God. And what is the motivation to gamble on the irrational or illogical, well, eternal life. If I am saved by faith in that which can not be proven then, I most certainly will not waste my time proving it a fact as to void its power to save based on faith in the invisible. The only sign that he has given us, is the death and resurrection of the Captain of our lives (souls).
No plagerizing involved, but I should use quotes or indicate my source.
When I say yawnable background in the previous thread, you should have taken the hint that its from a referenced source. once again you have set up a strawman.
Science does not have to disprove the existence of God, however it should sufficiently prove that hominids evolved from lower forms. Heretofore the evidence has been cirmcumstantial based on morphology, but as of late, the morphological auguments have been countered by the DNA evidence that had not been available in the past. Case in point, Homo-sapien sapiens evolved from Neanderthal, as stated in my biological text book. Not true, as supported by the DNA evidence.
Curious. if man evolved from apes and monkeys....why then are there still some apes and monkeys that didn't "evolve"???
What did those apes and monkeys do to piss off God so much that He didn't allow them to "evolve"?