I don't understand how anyone could be an atheist other than total mindless belligerent obstinacy, because obviously, that which does not exist can't cause anything so the universe can't come from nothing. We only have evidence for causation from something. Some atheists claim outside the universe doesn't abide in the cause and effect inside of the universe, but if that were true then the universe would never come into existence. Of course God can created from outside of time and space since God would transcend time and space. People say God can't create without time. Sure He can. He creates timelessly.

The only other approach I have ever seen atheists attempt is to claim the universe always existed in an infinite regress of cause and effects; but of course, that's false, because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now so you should have already happened, having had an eternity to do so. It gets even doubly worse for the atheist, because if a past eternity was true, then you should never have existed because that past eternity would go on for eternity never reaching this point. Therefore, infinite regress is a man made delusion.

I guess I should say why I believe Jesus is God over other faiths. The reason I believe this is because I can't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings. Group hallucinations are medically impossible - people never hallucinate the same thing. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie so the Apostles truly believed it; that is, they did not fraudulently make up their eyewitness testimony. Swoon theory fails because Jesus wouldn't convince anyone He is the risen Messiah all tattered and torn, scourged down the bone, holes in His feet and hands, unable to walk on the 3rd day. Legends theory fails because the Apostles believed it from the beginning, set up the first churches on the resurrection appearances of Jesus, and even Paul who was converted about 2 years after the cross said he spent 15 days with Peter, with James, and with John who were key eyewitnesses. Their faith goes right back to the cross. I know the movie "The Enemy" (2014) might convince someone Jesus had a twin brother, but his character and nature couldn't fool the Apostles who had spent 3 years with Jesus.

I believe a sinner is eternally separated from God because God can't have fellowship with sin. Therefore, God the Son mercifully enters His creation to pay the penalty and ransom for sin so that whoever believeth in Him shall not perish but has everlasting life. Those who do not receive what Jesus did for them to redeem them back to Him shall perish in a state of eternal conscious separation from God. The closest thing I can think of what Hell will be like for Muslims, Atheists, JW's, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Calvinists, Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, other Gnostics, Deists and Agnostics, etc. is simply jail. We throw people in jail for life so they can't harm others so for those who reject Jesus who He truly is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, must eternally be separated from those God loves, His elect, sons and daughters, namely Christians and Saints from the OT. That would be very unloving of God to allow someone who rejects and despises God to be able to interact with a person who is regenerated, has the Holy Spirit indwelling and eternal blessings, for there is no sin in the New City and New Earth.

Since there is no resurrection accounts (notice you are unable to find any sources from antiquity) except Jesus claiming to be God, He is the One and Only. For the atonement to be authentic, the Atoner must come in our likeness - the likeness of flesh - and that's what Jesus does as the perfect sacrifice for sins. When Jesus returns to reign on earth for 1000 years as the Son of Man, He will defeat the evil [atheist, etc.] nations, and His overcomer believers will reign on earth over the nations for 1000 years before the New City and New Earth commence eternity future.

That's why I believe what I believe since I don't know how disprove it. And there can be no greater proof. I can't even lose salvation, because I gave my life to the God who keeps: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Just ask yourself what proof could be better, and you will come up empty handed. You might claim you would believe if Jesus came before you now, but that contradicts His claim when He returns everyone will know it, and why would you even believe it who selfishly comes before you and not others. Why does the universe center around you?

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Well, at least you're honest. 

Belle, here's my theory.  There can only be a heaven or hell if there's an afterlife.  If there's an afterlife, then we're no longer living on Earth and crucially, we have no further chance to put right the wrongs we have done.  This means we have "all eternity" to contemplate the things we've done wrong, without being able to fix them.  Anything we've done wrong will eat at our guts - hell.  The things we've done right will give us pleasant satisfaction - heaven.  This is surprisingly similar to the religious view. 

the universe can't come from nothing.

You don't know that. And besides, there are two problems with that assertion: First, there appears to be no such thing as nothingness. Just because there's a word for something doesn't make it real (unicorn, for example, or God). Second, it appears very likely our universe is part of a larger reality that may include many (perhaps an infinite number of) universes and multiple dimensions as well.

Of course God can created from outside of time and space since God would transcend time and space. People say God can't create without time. Sure He can. He creates timelessly.

If everything has to operate within space and time, that would include God. You are simply defining him as being extra-temporal and extra-spacial. At any rate, your whole way of thinking assumes everyday physics, but the moment the universe sprang into existence very likely obeyed a different physics, or chaotic physics. If the theory of inflation is true, early physics might be described as chaotic.

The only other approach I have ever seen atheists attempt is to claim the universe always existed in an infinite regress of cause and effects; but of course, that's false, because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now so you should have already happened, having had an eternity to do so. It gets even doubly worse for the atheist, because if a past eternity was true, then you should never have existed because that past eternity would go on for eternity never reaching this point. Therefore, infinite regress is a man made delusion.

That reasoning may make sense to you, but it is abject nonsense.

I guess I should say why I believe Jesus is God over other faiths. The reason I believe this is because I can't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings. Group hallucinations are medically impossible - people never hallucinate the same thing.

You're ignoring all the discrepancies in the accounts of the life of Jesus, a person who may not even have existed or about whom we may have not historically accurate accounts, and who certainly didn't perform all that magic you believe you can attribute to him, like feeding a multitude with a fish sandwich.

People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie so the Apostles truly believed it; that is, they did not fraudulently make up their eyewitness testimony.

That whole statement depends upon the accounts of their testimony being true, but you can turn on a TV psychic and see pretty convincing stuff which appears miraculous. Two thousand years from now you might be reading that a man named David Copperfield could make huge structures disappear and that another one named David Blaine could really levitate. And aren't you forgetting the cults whose members have willingly died for their beliefs, such as the Heaven's Gate cultists?

Swoon theory fails because Jesus wouldn't convince anyone He is the risen Messiah all tattered and torn, scourged down the bone, holes in His feet and hands, unable to walk on the 3rd day. Legends theory fails because the Apostles believed it from the beginning, set up the first churches on the resurrection appearances of Jesus, and even Paul who was converted about 2 years after the cross said he spent 15 days with Peter, with James, and with John who were key eyewitnesses. Their faith goes right back to the cross. I know the movie "The Enemy" (2014) might convince someone Jesus had a twin brother, but his character and nature couldn't fool the Apostles who had spent 3 years with Jesus.

You're just parroting the biblical account of the resurrection and legends about the beginning of the church when, that is, you're not just letting your imagination run away from you. You have no way of distinguishing the reality from the truth of what actually happened. Did you know that there was no single early Christian church? There were a number of competing churches with different accounts of what happened and different traditions. The Christian Bible of today is the work of a committee. 

I believe a sinner is eternally separated from God because God can't have fellowship with sin. Therefore, God the Son mercifully enters His creation to pay the penalty and ransom for sin so that whoever believeth in Him shall not perish but has everlasting life. Those who do not receive what Jesus did for them to redeem them back to Him shall perish in a state of eternal conscious separation from God. The closest thing I can think of what Hell will be like for Muslims, Atheists, JW's, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Calvinists, Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, other Gnostics, Deists and Agnostics, etc. is simply jail. We throw people in jail for life so they can't harm others so for those who reject Jesus who He truly is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, must eternally be separated from those God loves, His elect, sons and daughters, namely Christians and Saints from the OT. That would be very unloving of God to allow someone who rejects and despises God to be able to interact with a person who is regenerated, has the Holy Spirit indwelling and eternal blessings, for there is no sin in the New City and New Earth.

Oh, and up till now I was assuming you were defending the entirety of Christianity. Instead, what are you defending? The interpretation of some little strip mall storefront "we call ourselves the only true Christians"-style church? Some megachurch with a billionaire preacher?

Faith doesn't need facts. Quite the opposite. Actually, the more absurd, illogical, and idiotic the beliefs you cling to, the more faith you have. Don't you want to be a very faithful Christian? By attempting a rational explanation, you are demonstrating that you aspire to be a man of knowledge who displays little faith. Make your decision: cover your eyes, close your mind and be a man of faith, or adopt the approach of attempting a rational explanation and turn your back on faith.

You're at a fork in your road, which way is yours? Faith or reason? Reason destroys faith; faith destroys reason.

Since there is no resurrection accounts (notice you are unable to find any sources from antiquity) except Jesus claiming to be God, He is the One and Only. For the atonement to be authentic, the Atoner must come in our likeness - the likeness of flesh - and that's what Jesus does as the perfect sacrifice for sins. When Jesus returns to reign on earth for 1000 years as the Son of Man, He will defeat the evil [atheist, etc.] nations, and His overcomer believers will reign on earth over the nations for 1000 years before the New City and New Earth commence eternity future.

Is your point that other old religions don't have resurrection story? Apparently, they don't need one. Doesn't this make them stronger?

A man woke up in a mortuary just a few weeks ago and like Jesus he has since died. That doesn't happen on a daily basis, but it happens. There are magicians who can fool you into thinking someone (or they themselves) have died, but then they come back to life. We also have the phenomenon of zombification which seems to be true and can simulate resurrection and living death (but is actually chemically induced), which means eyewitness accounts don't mean much. 

Now, here's why I can't be religious: Your God, as described, is a sorcerer who can make things out of nothing, and yet you yourself believe that things can't come out of nothing. What's your explanation for that? "With the one exception of my God?" Well, if something can come out of nothing, then the universe can. If something always existed, so can the universe. God simply offers a more complicated explanation for the universe than one needs. By Occam's Razor, we don't need God to explain the universe.

I can't believe the Christian account of a fatherly God and also believe in Hell. If my daughter were on the wrong path, would I be a kind father if I threatened to throw her into a lake of fire for eternity?

I've heard this "separation from God" theory before, but it doesn't comport with the Bible:

  • Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
  • Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
  • Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”

What you suffer from is what most religious people suffer from. You need explanations. Science doesn't explain the beginning of the universe, though it speculates and offers possible explanations. But you can't settle for not knowing, so you pretend to know by believing the most absurd kind of explanation just so that you have something to cling to.

That's why I believe what I believe since I don't know how disprove it. And there can be no greater proof.

You believe things that, if they happened at all, happened way in the past, and you depend upon essentially word of mouth of primitive and superstitious people giving accounts which can't be verified. Miracles. You can't point into any contemporary miracles? Nothing you can point to nowadays as definitive proof? Actually proving anything nowadays would be hard anyway, what with David Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty disappear or David Blaine levitating. Compared to feats like that, appearing to die and return from the dead is just another magic trick.

That which does not exist can't cause anything, as you admit, non-existence can't cause anything because it doesn't exist. Therefore, nature can't come from non-existence. So you try to propose the idea the universe or universes always existed in an infinite regress of cause and effects, but as we have seen in the opening post that's not possible, because you would have had an eternity to come into being before now, so you should have already happened. Ergo, nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. This uncreated Creator is whom we call God.

by "we" you mean those who are christians. Do christians also believe that zeus or allah also could have created the worlds? Or perhaps it was all the greek gods after all? I'm guessing your answer is "no". That is what makes you an atheist towards other religions already. Does not believing in allah or zeus change you? Does not believing in god change a muslim? Does not believing in any gods previously mentioned change anyone? It surely does not. 

I find it interesting that you completely ignored notions that me and others have made earlier, that it's ok for people of other faiths to genuinely worship their deities, just like you worship yours. The whole discussion should have stopped at this point. Instead, you seem to desperately seek confirmation for your already ingrained opinion on the "angry and immoral atheist", and you quickly jump in when someone sparks a debate on christian doctrines in particular. By increasing of doing so, you are on the brink to be classified as a troll. 

Seriously, get a life, enjoy it while you still can, accept the fact that not everyone will agree with you on every level. That's how life is. I would not push my views on anyone and I expect the same vice versa.

Personally, I'm curious to know what denomination you adhere to. I originally thought Lutheran simply because you left out Lutherans in your list of people who are damned, but then you used words like "elect" and the concept of once-saved-always-saved. From that and your evangelical display of a lack of compassion for everyone who you think is going to be tortured forever and your fervent belief in the imminent return of Jesus, I'm going to say Pentecostal or possibly Southern Baptist.

So how'd I do?

Why I Believe James Watts is Going to HELL.

For the same reason I believe he is going to go blind...James quit touching yourself.

:) :) :) :)

Just kidding James you're not going to Hell, blind maybe but not Hell.

That's some pretty fine ignorance you got there, kid...

Arrogance and insanity are the frame that mark your opinion. You tell us what you think, but why not tell us why we should care what you think. You are just another driveling infant, everything that you believe about life is a stupid joke and you are nothing but a walking punch line. The only reason you believe as you do is because you were handed these ideas, and you are too weak and too stupid to produce any ideas of your own.

Something can't come from nothing. Drivel.

Who says the universe came from anywhere, who can say that there was ever a point where some shred of the universe and its components was not in existence? It's not your dog, or grand pappy, it isn't just born and then lives and then dies. These are biotic matters, for living things to concern over, you are just projecting your fear, and your lack of understanding onto inanimate constructs. You may as well accuse a waterfall of being angry, or a pond of being lazy, or say that a chunk of lime stone is clinging to its life.

That's a bit strong.  You're even angrier than him. 

"why not tell us why we should care what you think."  - this is a discussion board after all. 

He has the opinion of an ass, and everyone else is supposed to join right in on his say-so, he wishes to make an ass of us all. Where is the well from which he draws this supposed knowledge? is he a biologist discussing biology? perhaps a well read amateur historian discussing the civil war? No, the only portion of his opinion that's informed is that he is an idiot discussing idiocy. He can discuss all he wants, he has a right to his stupid opinion, just as I have a right to my response to it.   

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