I don't understand how anyone could be an atheist other than total mindless belligerent obstinacy, because obviously, that which does not exist can't cause anything so the universe can't come from nothing. We only have evidence for causation from something. Some atheists claim outside the universe doesn't abide in the cause and effect inside of the universe, but if that were true then the universe would never come into existence. Of course God can created from outside of time and space since God would transcend time and space. People say God can't create without time. Sure He can. He creates timelessly.

The only other approach I have ever seen atheists attempt is to claim the universe always existed in an infinite regress of cause and effects; but of course, that's false, because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now so you should have already happened, having had an eternity to do so. It gets even doubly worse for the atheist, because if a past eternity was true, then you should never have existed because that past eternity would go on for eternity never reaching this point. Therefore, infinite regress is a man made delusion.

I guess I should say why I believe Jesus is God over other faiths. The reason I believe this is because I can't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings. Group hallucinations are medically impossible - people never hallucinate the same thing. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie so the Apostles truly believed it; that is, they did not fraudulently make up their eyewitness testimony. Swoon theory fails because Jesus wouldn't convince anyone He is the risen Messiah all tattered and torn, scourged down the bone, holes in His feet and hands, unable to walk on the 3rd day. Legends theory fails because the Apostles believed it from the beginning, set up the first churches on the resurrection appearances of Jesus, and even Paul who was converted about 2 years after the cross said he spent 15 days with Peter, with James, and with John who were key eyewitnesses. Their faith goes right back to the cross. I know the movie "The Enemy" (2014) might convince someone Jesus had a twin brother, but his character and nature couldn't fool the Apostles who had spent 3 years with Jesus.

I believe a sinner is eternally separated from God because God can't have fellowship with sin. Therefore, God the Son mercifully enters His creation to pay the penalty and ransom for sin so that whoever believeth in Him shall not perish but has everlasting life. Those who do not receive what Jesus did for them to redeem them back to Him shall perish in a state of eternal conscious separation from God. The closest thing I can think of what Hell will be like for Muslims, Atheists, JW's, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Calvinists, Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, other Gnostics, Deists and Agnostics, etc. is simply jail. We throw people in jail for life so they can't harm others so for those who reject Jesus who He truly is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, must eternally be separated from those God loves, His elect, sons and daughters, namely Christians and Saints from the OT. That would be very unloving of God to allow someone who rejects and despises God to be able to interact with a person who is regenerated, has the Holy Spirit indwelling and eternal blessings, for there is no sin in the New City and New Earth.

Since there is no resurrection accounts (notice you are unable to find any sources from antiquity) except Jesus claiming to be God, He is the One and Only. For the atonement to be authentic, the Atoner must come in our likeness - the likeness of flesh - and that's what Jesus does as the perfect sacrifice for sins. When Jesus returns to reign on earth for 1000 years as the Son of Man, He will defeat the evil [atheist, etc.] nations, and His overcomer believers will reign on earth over the nations for 1000 years before the New City and New Earth commence eternity future.

That's why I believe what I believe since I don't know how disprove it. And there can be no greater proof. I can't even lose salvation, because I gave my life to the God who keeps: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Just ask yourself what proof could be better, and you will come up empty handed. You might claim you would believe if Jesus came before you now, but that contradicts His claim when He returns everyone will know it, and why would you even believe it who selfishly comes before you and not others. Why does the universe center around you?

Tags: atheism, atheist, hell

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James, why do you care what we believe?  I will not try to diminish your faith.  Why is it important to you that anybody believes what you believe?  Can't you just believe it, be happy in that belief, and understand that some people, in fact millions, are never going to believe in any god, let alone Jesus?  

I know, you have to spread the word - that's how it works.  Have you ever heard of Amway?  Have you ever been to an Amway meeting?  They've got something to sell, just like you do.  I steer clear of people with that much fervor.  To me, you sound like an Amway salesperson who's been all amped up at a sales meeting.  If you don't want Amway products, no matter how excited the salesperson is about them, do you buy them?  Would you buy them if the salesperson threatened you?  I bet you wouldn't.  I wouldn't either. 

He MUST be trying to annoy... I mean, SAVE us...

James, read this:  http://goodatheistarguments.blogspot.com/2010/09/believers-ask-well...

It will explain why your first point, about the "obviousness" of god's existence, is based on circular reasoning.  (I assume you are aware that circular reasoning is invalid.)

Adorable!

I'll tear this apart on Monday.

I don't understand how anyone could be an atheist other than total mindless belligerent obstinacy,

That's an ad hominem fallacy. You open by attacking atheists as having no ability to think, as angry and aggressive, and stubbornly adhering to an opinion despite a reasonable argument to the contrary. Generally an ad hom gets you banned around here rather quickly. But until that happens, you do offer some entertainment value.

I noticed, by the way, you posted the identical article on Atheist Forums. I smell a cut-and-paste debater.

because obviously, that which does not exist can't cause anything so the universe can't come from nothing. We only have evidence for causation from something.

I can't speak for all atheists, but I accept the evidence that the universe exists and that it came from the big bang. Beyond that, nobody knows, and we have only conjecture. That is, except for you and your ilk, who claim to know how it all works.

That said, your argument is the standard, banal special pleading fallacy, James.

If nothing comes from nothing, what created God? If everything that exists requires causation, what created God? Did God have a God? Did God's God have a God? Here begins the special pleading of the crackpot that God doesn't need a creator, which instantly destroys his own fallacious argument.

Some atheists claim outside the universe doesn't abide in the cause and effect inside of the universe, but if that were true then the universe would never come into existence.

Unsourced claims attributed to "some atheists" don't impress me. If you're not citing specific sources of information to back your point you haven't made one.

And speaking of baseless...

Of course God can created from outside of time and space since God would transcend time and space. People say God can't create without time. Sure He can. He creates timelessly.

...these are extraordinary claims. Evidence?

The only other approach I have ever seen atheists attempt is to claim...

I'm sure most of us find it rather comical that you attribute these stances to "atheists". Atheism itself is without content. No positive claim is necessary to be an atheist.

Crackpot: God exists!
Me: Evidence?
Crackpot: There is none.
Me: I don't believe you.

That's all there is to it.

...the universe always existed...

Atheists claim the universe has always existed? Really? I don't claim that. I don't know any atheists who do. The best evidence suggests the universe began 13.82 billion years ago, not that it's infinitely old.

in an infinite regress of cause and effects; but of course, that's false, because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now so you should have already happened, having had an eternity to do so.

The best evidence we have is that the first cause was the big bang. "Before" that, we don't know. General and special relativity break down in describing the big bang. The very question of what happened "before" the big bang may be as meaningless as asking where the surface of a sphere begins.

It gets even doubly worse for the atheist, because if a past eternity was true, then you should never have existed because that past eternity would go on for eternity never reaching this point. Therefore, infinite regress is a man made delusion.

Your whole post to this point is essentially a strawman fallacy: a complete fabrication of arguments that you attribute falsely to atheists or as necessary to atheism.

Dismissed.

I guess I should say why I believe Jesus is God over other faiths. The reason I believe this is because I can't find a naturalistic explanation

This is a personal credulity fallacy (a reverse of the personal incredulity fallacy).

You inability to find an explanation for a claim does not mean the claim is true.

to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings.

Sure. Just like Lex Luthor and Lois Lane are willing to swear up and down that Superman exists and that he comes from Krypton. There's just no other possible explanation for Superman's amazing powers.

The Bible is the claim, not the evidence.

Group hallucinations are medically impossible - people never hallucinate the same thing. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie so the Apostles truly believed it; that is, they did not fraudulently make up their eyewitness testimony.

The Bible is the claim that there is eyewitness testimony, not the evidence that there is eyewitness testimony.

Even so, willingness to die for a belief does not make that belief true. If that's the standard, then David Koresh is God because 76 people died with him, some of whom chose death by fire over surrendering to federal authorities.

Swoon theory fails because Jesus wouldn't convince anyone He is the risen Messiah all tattered and torn, scourged down the bone, holes in His feet and hands, unable to walk on the 3rd day.

The Bible is the claim that Jesus rose from the dead, not the evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.

Legends theory fails because the Apostles believed it from the beginning, set up the first churches on the resurrection appearances of Jesus, and even Paul who was converted about 2 years after the cross said he spent 15 days with Peter, with James, and with John who were key eyewitnesses. Their faith goes right back to the cross.

This is simply belaboring the same point you have not made. Claiming that these events occurred is not proof that they occurred. Believing that Jesus was God does not make it true that he was God.

I know the movie "The Enemy" (2014) might convince someone Jesus had a twin brother, but his character and nature couldn't fool the Apostles who had spent 3 years with Jesus.

Gosh, thanks James. Until you informed me that Hollywood's latest erotic thriller couldn't possibly be true, I might have believed it. You know, considering how credulous you are and how I demand evidence to support claims.

I believe a sinner is eternally separated from God because God can't have fellowship with sin.

This is preaching, which is disallowed here. I don't care what you believe, James. Claims made without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

Dismissed.

Therefore, God the Son mercifully enters His creation to pay the penalty and ransom for sin so that whoever believeth in Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. Those who do not receive what Jesus did for them to redeem them back to Him shall perish in a state of eternal conscious separation from God.

Preaching. Dismissed.

The closest thing I can think of what Hell will be like for Muslims, Atheists, JW's, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Calvinists, Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, other Gnostics, Deists and Agnostics, etc. is simply jail. We throw people in jail for life so for those who reject Jesus who He truly is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, must be eternally separated from those God loves, His elect, sons and daughters, namely Christians and saints from the OT.

Preaching. Dismissed.

That would be very unloving of God to allow someone who rejects and despises God to be able to interact with a person who is regenerated, has the Holy Spirit indwelling and eternal blessings, for there is no sin in the New City and New Earth.

Exactly, James. It would be unloving of God not to torture non-believers for all eternity.

Preaching. Dismissed.

Since there is no resurrection accounts (notice you are unable to find any sources in antiquity) except Jesus claiming to be God , He is the One and Only. For the atonement to be authentic, the Atoner must come in our likeness, the likeness of flesh, and that's what Jesus does as a perfect sacrifice for sins. When Jesus returns to reign on earth for 1000 years as the Son of Man, He will defeat the evil nations, and His overcomer believers will reign on earth over the nations for 1000 years before the New City and New Earth commence into eternity future.

Preaching. Dismissed.

That's why I believe what I believe since I don't know how disprove it. And there can be no greater proof.

That's an argument from ignorance fallacy wrapped in a personal incredulity fallacy. That a claim cannot be disproved does not make it true. That you don't know you are ignorant (of your own fallacious reasoning) does not make your claims true.

Crackpot: There are giant elephants on Pluto that pee gasoline and crap gold nuggets.
Me: Evidence?
Crackpot: Prove this isn't true.
Me: I can't.
Crackpot: See? That proves it! There can be no greater proof!

Priceless.

I can't even lose salvation, because I gave my life to the God who keeps: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Just ask yourself what proof could be better, and you will come up empty handed. You might claim you would believe if Jesus came before you now, but that contradicts His claim when He returns everyone will know it, and why would you even believe it who selfishly comes before you and not others.

Preaching. Dismissed.

Why does the universe center around you?

That's a loaded question fallacy, James.

Your hypocritical irony escapes you. Here you falsely attribute this position to atheists while you and your ilk claim to have privileged places in a universe and afterlife made by your specific god. And you think atheists like me are claiming to be the center of the universe? That's not the stupidest thing I've ever heard, but it's close.

Watching your brain sputter along in a fog of child-like credulity, personal attacks, intellectual dishonesty, delusional obstinacy, and veiled threats-- while attacking atheists falsely for doing what you yourself do-- is more than sheer entertainment gold, James. It also embodies everything I've come to expect in a Christian.

It is apparently beyond the means of JamesWatts to response to any challenge to his regrettable faith based reason.

Almost none of what you say is correct. The errors don't start with the word "timelessly" but that fault was the one that really said to me that you haven't explored any of what you claim here. Or you have swallowed whole what others have shoveled.

While we do not yet have a solid theory as to how the universe began, your "god" is hardly an answer. It has the same problem as to where it comes from.

Your second paragraph is gibberish. You clearly do not understand eternity.

"Group hallucinations are medically impossible …" – technically true but that would not be the source. A mass 'hallucination' would be a psychological event.

"People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie so the Apostles truly believed it; that is, they did not fraudulently make up their eyewitness testimony." – not true. America recently went to war because there supposedly were WMDs. We learned this was not true yet we did not ask our soldiers to come home so they continued to fight and die for a lie; the situation had become about stabilizing the country by then but that does not change the origins. Also, people make up eyewitness testimony all the time – why should the apostles be abnormal in that respect? Not everyone will make up such lies but those that didn't can easily be subject to the various psychological and social pressures that blur perception and recollection.

"I know the movie "The Enemy" (2014) might convince someone Jesus had a twin brother … " – I find no evidence of a movie coming out this year with "enemy" in the title about Jesus. There is "a 2013 erotic thriller film directed by Denis Villeneuve adapted by Javier Gullón based on José Saramago's 2002 novel The Double. The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal in a dual role …" [from Wikipedia]. And from IMDB: "Enemy" - "A man seeks out his exact look-alike after spotting him in a movie." So I don't see how that would relate to the movie you mention. A movie which seems to only exist in your imagination.

" I believe a sinner is eternally separated from God because God can't have fellowship with sin." – Well, you believe wrong. Without God there is no such thing as sin so God is very much in "fellowship" with sin.

You then yammer on about being separated from God and how that is Hell. There was a time I desperately wanted God in my life but He refused to give me any sign. By your definition I was already in Hell at that point. But it's only Hell if you believe. Once I was able to see there was no god of any kind from any religion I felt much better. It is a comfort to lose the belief in a deity who commits horrendously cruel acts such as the Dec 26, 2004 tsunami that killed more than 230,000 people in 14 countries. It is tragic that a natural disaster killed those people. But I am glad I no longer believe there is a monstrously evil being masquerading as benevolent and demanding obeisance.

"Since there is no resurrection accounts (notice you are unable to find any sources in antiquity) except Jesus … " – totally false. There are quite a few other mythical figures who rose from the dead; Jesus is not alone.

"That's why I believe what I believe since I don't know how disprove it." – I can see that. Those things that you could have researched and gotten right, you did not. The religious stuff, well that can't be proven or disproven.

Maybe someday you will remove the blinders of your religion and see the light.

If a US solider is held at gun point and told to admit there was no WMD otherwise he would be killed, and the soldier refuse to admit it even though he knew there was no WMD, people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie.

Perceptions of recollection about seeing a WMD would be a group hallucination, but group hallucinations are impossible.

"group hallucinations are impossible"

Group lies occur regularly. But, of course, these were holy men and holy men don't lie, right James?

People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie.

Yes, James, You've already established this ridiculous red herring in your original post. Now you've compounded your humiliation by willfully ignoring the simple rebuttal posted above:

Willingness to die for a belief does not make it true. If that's the standard, then David Koresh is God because 76 people died with him, some of whom chose death by fire over surrendering to federal authorities.

Perceptions of recollection about seeing a WMD would be a group hallucination, but group hallucinations are impossible.

Ridiculous.

Whether it's Hindus thinking statues are drinking milk, people thinking we're being invaded by Martians, or mobs drinking raw sewage because it turned "sweet", mass hysteria and group hallucinations are common.

Could you rephrase this? I'm confused by your reasoning.

You want a sign from God, but no better sign exists than the proof of God in the opening post by observing nature and the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles seeing Jesus resurrected.

If the very best signs don't convince you why would you think some lesser signs would help you?

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