Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Andrew on December 8, 2012 at 3:30am

bigotry.

when a person is bigoted, they don't think logically, so "they are an abomination, but they still should have the right to marry who they want" is not something they are capable of thinking

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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on December 8, 2012 at 4:35am

I think it's a control issue. Homosexuality was probably low-hanging fruit in terms of moral issues on which to preach for quite some time. Many people are concerned about change and are worried that they will lose their traditions and their way of life. Tolerating and even embracing homosexuality must seem like quite the cultural change for many folks. Even twenty years ago, it was quite a bit easier to point to homosexuals and cry 'perversion' without anyone in the room raising a fuss. It was something which you could unite people against without too much controversy. It was also an extremely easy moral standard for the vast majority of people to uphold themselves.

These days things have progressed for LGBT equality advocates. Many people no longer view homosexuality as a moral issue. Even some of those who do see it as a moral issue don't feel it is their right to demand others live by that standard. Many people are realizing when two boys kiss each other fire does not rain down from the sky. When two ladies raise a child together, that child does not automatically grow up to be a flamboyant Hitler hellbent on a vibrant pink persecution of the pious. According to Gallup, just a little over half the country supports same-sex marriage, and many religious figures preach tolerance. Change is happening, but I imagine there will be a considerable number of holdouts up until the very day I die and well beyond. That's okay. Not everyone needs to agree. The laws will eventually change in most, if not all, jurisdictions, I'm sure.

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Permalink Reply by Kairan Nierde on December 9, 2012 at 9:18pm

It was also an extremely easy moral standard for the vast majority of people to uphold themselves.

Lol.  True that.

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Permalink Reply by James Green on December 8, 2012 at 7:05am

It's not just you. It's an equality issue plain and simple. It needs to be treated as such.

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Permalink Reply by Michael on December 8, 2012 at 8:22am

Actually more than half of Americans support marriage equality. We don't vote on issues like that though. To be honest it should never come to a vote anyway because people's rights should never be put up for a vote. Unfortunately we have a very persistent and powerful evangelical lobby that holds our elected officials hostage. I would be willing to bet that there are more in congress that support gay marriage than are willing to admit it. Thankfully our politicians won't be able to ignore the clear unconstitutionality of discriminating against gays that would like to get married for much longer. The support for gay marriage is growing stronger and stronger.

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Permalink Reply by Andrew on December 10, 2012 at 3:43pm

"people's rights should never be put up for a vote."

how do you expect people to gain rights, then? Women and black people gained civil rights because of votes. Do you expect some sort of violent revolution this time around?

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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on December 10, 2012 at 7:33pm

I can understand this if you disagree with the point that it is a constitutional issue; however, taking into account Michael's statement that such discrimination is unconstitutional, I don't understand how you can have a vote on it. That seems dysfunctional.

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Permalink Reply by Ed on December 8, 2012 at 8:48am

There is hope. Twenty years ago I was opposed to same sex relationships, let alone marriage. People can and do change as I have. Those who are firmly entrenched in religious dogma will not be so easily swayed. Some Christians and Jews can accept the idea of same sex partnerships but forget about those of Islamic faith. They are extremely intolerant of such notions. And the idea that our country's laws can be biased and discriminatory towards those who choose an alternative lifestyle sits just fine with the bigoted religious zealots. It is a control issue for them. They must maintain control otherwise it is seen as a sign of weakness and conforming to the secular world. 

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Permalink Reply by Kairan Nierde on December 9, 2012 at 9:21pm

I used to be against homosexuality too.  Figured out I was bisexual and had to rethink things.  Doh!  Probably helped contribute to my discovery of atheism.

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Permalink Reply by Lewal on December 8, 2012 at 11:57am

I suspect on some level it could be insecurity. "How does my support of gay marriage reflect on me?" and so on and so forth. After that I'd suspect a large part of it is ignorance.

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Permalink Reply by Marc on December 8, 2012 at 2:27pm

For religious people I think that on this issue, like many issues that religious people face, they have simply abdicated their thought processes to the church and have left the really 'hard' decisions to the doctrine. For me, that is what frustrates me the most. Reasoned thinkers end up at a conclusion after considerable thought and analysis, living through the angst and discomfort it takes to arrive at that conclusion, whereas many religious folks start at the conclusion and then look around for evidence to support it. For something as superficial as gay marriage it's an easy black and white issue to rally around, and I think a considerable amount of social pressure or social support to be against it, goes along with that conclusion.

Unlike atheists who typically don't get together every Sunday and compete with each other about who is the most non-pious, the religious folks do in the opposite sense of course.

For the non-religious I am completely baffled by someone's lack of support. If you look around at mammals, a measurable percentage of them engage in same sex relationships and we don't stand out as an exception to that pattern. So unless god is around to say its wrong, its pretty natural.

I also think that many people that are against gay marriage or homosexuality in general spend WAY more time thinking about the actual sex acts than I do.

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Permalink Reply by Kairan Nierde on December 9, 2012 at 9:27pm

For me, that is what frustrates me the most. Reasoned thinkers end up at a conclusion after considerable thought and analysis, living through the angst and discomfort it takes to arrive at that conclusion...

That's so true.  And doesn't it just burn when a theist tells you you're being arrogant, closed-minded, or looking for the easy way out, having reached the conclusion that there is no God.  I tried to explain what you've said, but it didn't penetrate.

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