Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Lewal on November 3, 2012 at 12:44am

He unleashes a torrent (and it can lean a little philosophical). Now if you look at a transcript of these torrents and reduce what you take from it to a number of questions, you can start to take him apart. But in his presentations' initial unleashing, you're presented with sheer mass, a colossal tower of wrong to make right, and you don't even know where to start. He's the very worst kind of modern Christian, but a fantastic     for an atheists that likes to really get in there and dismantle mountains.

Or because he has the kind of face that you just want to smash until it leaks pink oozy fluids. Because there's that.

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Permalink Reply by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on November 3, 2012 at 11:31am

WLC is very good at debating. We have discussed this before and in order to counter his arguments you do need to be very prepared. He has been called a “Master Debater” here before and I cannot disagree with that sentiment. However his arguments are not as significant or as important as he would like to think. The Kalam Cosmological Argument which he refined and made his own is a worthwhile exercise in philosophical debate if you are so inclined. However it is basically a remodelling of the “First Cause” argument. The fact that the KCA is from Islamic tradition never leads him to deduce that Allah is this First Cause rather than his Christian god is never explained.

He is good at debating the KCA as he has dedicated the last 40 years to it. If something exists it must have been caused to exist. The Universe exists so it began to exist therefore his god did it.  This is a supernatural explanation to a naturalistic question.  One of his aides is a TA member and we have had a few good debates with him. However like all Theists they still assume that their Arguments for god are actually Evidence for his existence.

He also reworks the Ontological Argument. God is the greatest thing we can conceive of. Therefore gods’ non-existence is not possible.  Therefore the Atheist must reject something he knows must exist. So anyone denying the existence of god is contradicting themselves. This however as Schopenhauer says is only a “subtle play with concepts” and not an a priori proof of anything. Non-existence does not have any attributes and so is only a “fiction of the mind” to quote Kant.

His arguments need a fair degree of conceptual analysis and they tend to become metaphysical debates. This is his area. He is good at it and it may be difficult for the opposite side to stay with him because their grounding is in logic and reasoned analysis of the subject. It is easy to stray into such a place in a philosophical debate. He is highly qualified in this area. The study of philosophy is the introduction to philosophy, to quote Hegel. Many coming from a scientific background will not be able to switch to the WLC way of thinking which they need do in order to debate him. What they should do is to say “Ok the Universe did have a First Cause. We think it is the Big Bang because we have evidence to suggest that this is scientifically true.” ”Please refute our argument without playing your faith card.” Leave infinite regression arguments out on both side and see who makes more sense. I think he would leave the stage and the scientist would end up talking to his vacant chair. I can conceive of that scenario in my mind as being  “Perfect”.

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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on November 18, 2012 at 11:23am

RE: "the Ontological Argument. God is the greatest thing we can conceive of. Therefore gods’ non-existence is not possible."

Where does that leave people like me? I can't conceive of a god, which therefore ascertains that he/she/it cannot be the greatest thing of which I can conceive.The greatest thing of which I can conceive, is the unconditional love of a child, and ain't no talkin'-snake makin' god gonna top that!

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Permalink Reply by Angelo on November 18, 2012 at 11:32am

you cannot conceive God, because you do not want do, or because its intellectually more compelling to you, to believe, we are the result of pure chance, or physical necessity ?

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Permalink Reply by kOrsan on November 18, 2012 at 11:35am

Or maybe it's because he's sane.

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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on November 18, 2012 at 12:39pm

Thanks, k, but who's really gonna believe that?

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Permalink Reply by Emperor Milos on November 18, 2012 at 11:36am

Well, clearly you are unfamiliar with evolution, since there is no "pure chance" involved.
Also, we cannot conceive god because it is an extremely far fetched imaginary friend that goes against the evidence this world presents us with.

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Permalink Reply by Angelo on November 18, 2012 at 11:42am

sorry, the theory of evolution cannot be applied to the origin of the universe, and life. There you have only the alternatives i mentioned. so what evidence are you talking about ?

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Permalink Reply by Emperor Milos on November 18, 2012 at 11:49am

http://godisimaginary.com/i25.htm

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Permalink Reply by Angelo on November 18, 2012 at 11:56am

your cited webpage gives evasive answers and makes superficial assertions</p for example :Where did the first cell come from? Many believers will argue that God magically created the first living cell. This, of course, is silly. The scientific principle that describes the origin of life is called abiogenesis. so what

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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on November 18, 2012 at 12:57pm

@Angelo - RE: "your cited webpage gives evasive answers and makes superficial assertions" - I saw 60 proofs offered, how many did you read? Be honest now --

RE: "The scientific principle that describes the origin of life is called abiogenesis. so what" - let me finish that sentence for you, "so what has that to do with a magic god?"

No thanks necessary --

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Permalink Reply by Angelo on November 18, 2012 at 5:39pm

yes, the brother grimms also made up nice little fantasy stories for children. so what does that have to do with reality. just because someone came up with a fantasy story called abiogenesis, it does not mean that hypoteses is true. you need to learn a littlebit critical thinking. nobody has proven abiogenesis to be true. and there are many reasons to believe, life cannot arise  by chance. despite of this you believe it. why.

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