This does not account for the fact that Christian believers are far more likely to try to prolong their lives with painful treatments than non-believers. That kind of desperate hanging on to life suggests that they are unwilling to die, not that they want to cheat.
Doesn't that sort of make you feel like a sociopath?
I'm just saying, I don't even let my friends walk home alone at night for fear of being mugged.
Because I love them.
And muggings aren't a huge deal.
But eternal suffering and agony and all that stuff Christians believe in? (Assuming you do, of course. I realize there are many forms of Christianity, and I'd not want to misrepresent you if that isn't the case.)
If I thought someone I cared for was honestly, genuinely going to face an eternity of agony, I would not let them leave my presence until I was assured of their safety. I would tie them to a chair. This life is fleeting if you believe in an afterlife like that, right? No crime you commit in the effort to save them would be anything but compassionate, right?
So are you out there doing that? Does it keep you up at night?
How would you be happy in heaven knowing someone you live is burning in hell?
Or do you just not have atheist loved ones?
Just curious. No malice meant, though I understand these are sort of tough questions.
You realize you follow a god that is going to torture your best friend for all eternity simply because the guy (or girl) took a look at all the evidence and came to a conclusion based on that evidence, personal experience and his own mindset?
Which means god either purposefully or by negligence created him with said mindset, which lead to the personal experiences which led to his conclusion of said evidence.
Which means if god is all powerful, he created your friend to be atheist and is now going to punish him for it. If he's not all powerful, then I'd start shopping for a better god.
I mean, I'm not even going to get into the absurdities of a spirit sacrificing his son who is really himself for sins of the world that he created (And we could take this all the way back to creation. An all knowing god putting a talking snake in a garden with a forbidden fruit that was VERY suspiciously placed is an easy target for me, but this isn't about me....)
I mean, I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best person in the world. I let my friends down all the time.
But holy crap. That's scary.
I don't give a shit who you are. Even if god were to appear to me right now in my living room and tell me "Look bitch, it doesn't have to make sense. It's this way because I said so!" I would straight up reply with "Alright, then. I feel you are unjust and evil, so I'll take the hell option, please!"
You are really ok with your god torturing good, honest, hard working and loving people just because they don't believe a very scattered, conflicting, confusing religion?
You willingly follow that? For real?
And you like.. go on about your day, not really doing very much about it at all?
Misty wrote: "How would you be happy in heaven knowing someone you live is burning in hell?"
d.clair. replied: I have no idea
@ d.clair - The answer is you would not feel happy unless your memory was erased. So if you believe in this concept of the Christian heaven, that is what will have to happen.
What kind of a just God would erase the love, for example, a mother has for her child just because the child decided there was not enough evidence to accept whatever the heck he would need to accept in order to get into your concept of heaven.
Your child could be a good loving child. He could grow up to love his own children and work hard to provide for them. He could be a kind and compassionate person. But no, just because he does not accept your myth of Christianity, he will suffer for infinity and beyond. Why can't you see how preposterous this line of thinking is. Wake up! Please. For Goodness sake.
Nothing good enters hell. Hell is a place, or a state, or whatever, that is completely devoid of God's presence. You should really read C. S. Lewis's Great Divorce if you would like to understand this. However, I am in fact not sure that you would. Would you? :
@ ondrej - I read that when I was a Christian. It left me confused as hell and helped me realize what a bunch of bunk religion is.
I know this is off-topic. Sorry about that. The Great Divorce is one of my favorite books. I read it when I was a Christian too but strangely, I didn't see the religion in it. In fact, I think it contributed towards me taking one more step away from religion.
To me, it was an allegory of how people live in the real world. They hold on to regrets, anger, loss, etc. which prevents them from moving on to a better life in general. I know people who get so wrapped up in something that happened to them that their lives literally stop. They get off the bus, look around at what life offers but get back on the bus because they are unable to get past their hurt, anger, etc.
I do recommend reading it again from a secular perspective. There is a lot of psychology in it that is worth exploring.
As far as the topic at hand. I agree with whoever said that it is selfishness that makes people grieve. Whether you believe they go to heaven or not, that person is gone. You will not have the joy of interacting with them ever again and I think that is what grieving is all about.
Some cultures do/did celebrate when a person died because they believed they were going somewhere better. The Vikings (Valhalla) comes to mind but I know there are others.
C.S. Lewis is not accepted as a canonical writer by any Christian tradition. This doctrine is just his opinion and not universally accepted by all Christians..
It is, however, a very convenient way of getting around the awkward clash between a god who is claimed to be completely loving and one who creates evil, makes wagers with the devil and throws people in an eternal torture chamber because they don't believe the right things before they die.
It does not match what the gospel writers believe that Jesus taught without a lot of word twisting and semantic assaults and somersaults.
Of course! And Lewis himself would have it no other way, I am sure. :) After all, he was no theologian.
However I do not think that makes his explanation any less valid. After all, his books have earned him a lot of respect, I even hear some Catholic bishops quoting him from time to time. :D
Anyway, I do not think his explanation does not match gospels. If your previous posts are any indication I will not agree with the arguments that you may present to support that claim, but in spite of that I would like to hear them very much. Actually – is it possible that some author or other has already addressed those issues in writing so that one can perhaps read such well-composed and carefully reasoned argument? That might help. :) Any links?
Btw. I believe that the Anglican Church has pronounced C. S. Lewis a hero of faith, which seems to be basically as close as they get towards pronouncing a person a saint these days... :D