I think it is obvious that Christianity has become mostly benign and secularized for the most part and I don't see Christians subjugating their women and executing gays in the ways that take place in the Islamic world due to the quran and Hadith (the Hadith is the so-called writings of the prophet and his followers in which Islamic Shariah law is based from); but I see too many atheists tending to bash Christianity and giving excuses for Islam. Why is this so when according to the Islamic faith, we atheists are "kafar" should be the first ones killed before the Christians and Jews (especially me, since I am an apostate since I was "born" a Muslim); therefore, why do atheists tend to give excuses for the true evils of the Islamic faith??


Jesus Christ as a symbol (whether he was a real person or not) is a much better role model than the child molesting, murderous, and evil "prophet" called Muhammad. The Bible doesn't demand governments to be Christian but the Quran demands that all governments be Islamic by nature and the punishments are much more bizarre. In Islam, you can not even ask any questions about Muhammad or Allah but Christians and Jews are able to debate within themselves and ask questions. When a cartoon is drawn or a quran is burnt you see how savagely Muslims act throughout the world and those who are "moderate" instead of condemning the barbaric acts blame the "Salman Rushdie's" or the "Pastor" instead of placing blame on the perpetrators and culture of violence in the Islamic world. So why is it, that Christianity is often (in my opinion) overly criticized and Islam is not criticized enough when the gravest threat to the existence of the human race is surely an Islamic regime with nuclear weapons?? I'd like to get your opinions..

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"Prejudice"; how ironic from those giving excuses to Islam and blaming the west every chance they get. Read my responses, I have posted several including links to articles and videos. You should find it quite interesting.
Precisely my friend.

But first and foremost: to let Muslims know that they must adopt to minimum levels of human rights if they are to be participators in the international arena with the west.


Okay.  Now you've sent them a letter by certified mail letting them know.  Now what?  If they don;t conform to your request/demand, what are you going to do about it?

Letters, confrontation, legal/democratic 'solutions' won't work. Neither will an outright war or aggression. All this will do is polarise people. I think it's a long-term haul: Educate, educate educate...and then it must be a liberal open education system that allows people freedom of expression, critical consciousness etc. The contradiction in what I've just said, lies in the fact that the powers that be will resist very strongly the very notion that women (for e.g.)in some Muslim countries have access to ANY education, let alone a liberal education. So what should be done? Pressure from international agencies on human rights; sanctions (oil???), offering especially Muslim women bursaries and scholarships to universities and colleges in countries that offer a liberal education, use of the Internet to expose atrocities such as beheadings, corrective rape etc. These interventions should be thoroughly thought out and be coordinated by NGO's(not govt agencies) and champions for the liberation of the people in Islamic countries.

Brian, I never said to "send a letter". I think the process of education is not possible without first and foremost letting Muslims who immigrate to Europe and the west know that they must adhere to the basic principles of western values and that "multiculturalism" is no longer going to be tolerated. In doing so, Muslims must choose whether to keep their fascist ways or have an opportunity to immigrate and remain in the west. In doing so, Muslims will not be able to self-segregate themselves in the ways they have done in Europe and to establish their own "public Islamic schools" and even "local laws" in an attempt to "keep their traditions". In regards to your other suggestions within Islamic societies themselves; I agree with you in regards to international pressure and other measures you mentioned as a necessity.

IT will be a long road but the human race demands people of all races, cultures, and creeds have certain sets of universal human rights innate to them from the moment they are born and lasting for a natural lifetime.

Most atheists are in the West, and in America at least, the primary incursion from religion into the public sphere is from Christianity. If you look at Europe, where the ratio is changing, Islam is becoming a much more important target. Just look at Pat Condell's videos. He spends a lot of time on Islam, because it's a bigger threat. In the US, Muslims are a still a tiny minority, much smaller but much more outspoken than atheists.
Yes, yes great point! Not to go off track but the Europeans have learned the hard way with the failed policies of multiculturalism and their Islamic immigration problems and have changed their laws accordingly. We in the west face an immigration problem of our own and if we won't accordingly change our laws and to learn from the mistakes of political correctness; then we are going down a path that will lead to the demise of America (a little off topic but just wanted to respond with this point).
Yes, we should stop letting people from muslim countries in...wait, how did you get in? Maybe you should first learn the reasons why all this immigration happened and why it only started 20 years after WW2.

Did I ever state that we should simply stop letting people immigrate legally? I said that we must stop the attitudes of multiculturalism and that all cultures are equal. We must demand people who immigrate to assimilate and adopt western values if they decide to immigrate to the west. This is not so much of a problem in America and in particular with Iranians since Iranians are pro-American, secular, and pro-west but it can be a problem with other Muslim populations. This is about speaking out against Islam and not giving excuses when they beat their women, commit acts of honor killing, treat their daughters like they own them, genital mutilation, and other oppressive acts done in the name of Islam.

If you are referring to the immigration problem of the United States; I was referring to the illegal immigration problem and the influx of Mexicans which threatens the future of American hegemony and sovereignty. I simply stated, Europeans learned from their immigration problems and have altered their laws accordingly but we are still stuck in political correctness mode. Only in the United States are the children of illegal immigrants automatically citizens. This topic/discussion is not about illegal immigration/Mexican immigration problem; it was just a side note that I added.

Multiculturalism is simply the direct consequence of our freedoms. Freedom of religion, of speech, of expression and peaceful reunion all mean that nobody has to assimilate. If you have a problem with multiculturalism go to saudi arabia, they are enforcing monoculturalism!

Nonsense. Multiculturalism has been a direct attack on western secularism, democracy, and values of human rights and women's rights as seen throughout Europe. Multiculturalism is a direct attack on the very freedoms that we hold as inalienable rights and innate freedoms of citizens - and of particularly women. You fail to grasp the understanding of either what I am conveying in that the policies of multiculturalism in which Muslims have been able to self-segregate and oppress their women throughout Europe has been an utter failure and has been a result of an attack on the very freedoms we hold so dear to us.


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