It almost seems like atheists don't want to believe in God. Do you just simply not want to believe in God because you don't want to give up your own free will?

ADMIN EDIT: Mercedes has left on her own accord. This discussion will remain, however do not expect a response from the author. 


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Miracles DON'T HAPPEN. Once something is explained, it's explained. Up till then it's awaiting explanation. 

When I was a kid, it wasn't understood how bumblebees could possibly fly. We didn't think it was a miracle brought about by God, but something that simply hadn't been explained yet. 

Of course, the first thing one has to do when confronted with a so-called "miracle," is to ask "Really?" Like, Jesus fed a huge multitude with a few fish and loaves of bread? He exorcised demons and chased them into pigs and drove the hapless pigs over a precipice, killing them?


Miracles? My dad recently had a rather severe heart attack. He was in ICU and in a coma for 2 weeks. He pulled out of it with no brain damage and has made a full recovery after a couple months.

Is that a miracle? No it isn't. 

My mother was home when this happened, she knows CPR and knew enough CPR to keep his blood moving until the EMTs arrived. Doctors at the local hospital are smart and capable enough to know that his situation is far worse than the local doctors can provide and immediately moved him to a facility that can treat him properly.

There is no miracle here. Doctors are the product of the scientific community. CPR is based on medical science and fact. My mothers CPR training is based on scientific observation in the field she works in. 

If religion superseded scientific knowledge and fact, my father would have died and it would have been "God's will". Funny thing though, is that somehow it's still "God's will" to have given him a dead for 3 minutes heart attack and then bringing him back to life putting our family through misery for nearly 2 weeks.

And this i suppose is an example of a miracle from your loving God?

When your Bible was written, something like a Tsunami would have been a miracle - it just happened, nobody had seen it before - had to be some sort of miracle  Now we know exactly how and why they happen. The vast majority of miracles turn out to have scientific explanations. Are there still things we don't understand? Of course. Does that make them miracles? 

thanx for your reply Milos. it was very informative and I learned from it.

You're welcome. I'm glad it helped, and I really recommend checking out the links I posted in my reply, they are good information and may further help answer your questions.

I will answer your 3 replies in this one post for the same reason as above.

I believe in HIm because he's revealed himself to me through his Son Jesus Christ. He's all the proof I need. I have a personal relationship with him and he's comforted me many times.

Sadly, this was the answer I expected to see, and hoped not to. You proved the whole point of my laughably long post in your reply here.

I asked you to "please, if you can, answer without using the bible, or god as evidence. What worldly, observable, testable evidence do you have to support your god over any other god?"

Your reply in summary was "I believe in god because I believe in god. And Jesus, bible and miracles."

You were unable to answer my question the way I asked you to answer and you defaulted to the last template reply that every theist gives when they have no answer to give, as I have stated in my previous reply. Feelings, personal experience, and a holy book can be applied in the exact same way to any other deity that has existed in our history. Therefore none of those things can be used as evidence, simply because in order to accept personal experience, faith, Jesus, the bible, or miracles as evidence, you already need to believe in the thing you are trying to prove real.

If I tell you that Zeus is the one true god, and I say that lightning is proof of Zeus, that I have had a personal experience with Zeus and that he comforts me, that the ancient stories of Zeus are also evidence of his existence, does that make Zeus real?
I just listed the same reasons you believe in Yahweh/Yeshua/Ghost as reasons that I believe in Zeus. Does that make Zeus any more real now? I don't think so, and neither do you.

When you say that you believe in something because you have a "personal relationship" and it is "comforting", you are telling us that you believe in this because it makes you feel good, whether or not it is real. Once again. Mercedes, in the real world, feelings don't add up to dick as evidence. What court of law would release a murderer simply because the jury "feels" he is innocent?

Besides the Bible there's also a lot of miracles that happen

I have already established why the bible is not proof of anything in my long reply to you. The glaring inconsistency between gospels and between gospels and verified history and science dismisses the bible as any form of evidence. Especially when, once again, any ancient religion with a holy book can claim that their book is proof of their deity.

As for miracles, they can easily be given over to chance instead of divine intervention. Diseases often go into remission, it is a scientific fact, no god needed, weird, crazy good things happen all the time to a lot of people, some bad people. Why would god reward bad people with a miracle? And a lot of bad things happen. A lot of prayers for miracles go unanswered as well.
Miracles can easily be attributed to confirmation bias (you forget the misses and only remember the hits), spontaneous remission (cancer going away on its own), or just probability (it was bound to happen to someone eventually), and very often to deception and lies. Many "confirmed" miracles have been exposed as tricks and lies by the people who claimed the miracle as genuine in order to "prove" their particular god.

For every miracle you attribute to Jesus, a Muslim can attribute to Allah, a Hindu to any of their pantheon, and other people will attribute them to aliens, or ghosts or whatever else they believe in.

Something I would be shocked with and would consider a possible miracle would be if a man with no legs, spontaneously grew his legs back in front of a team of scientists on live TV. But there have never been any miracles that involve growing back limbs. Especially since the camera was invented.

You see where I am going here?

All of the things you presented as evidence in your answers to my two questions are not evidence at all. And even though, in my above post, I explained in meticulous detail why these things are not evidence, and asked for any other kind of proof, you still presented me with the same dead horse that religious people have beaten into an unrecognizable puddle of mangled flesh, broken bones and pulped organs.

I really encourage you to think about these things very hard. Write down on a piece of paper all the reasons you have to believe in your god, and then ask yourself, how many of these can be attributed to any of the other 2875 gods in our history, and how many can be explained by simple chance or deception.

After you do that, ask yourself, why do I really believe in this?

Milos, RE: "the same dead horse that religious people have beaten into an unrecognizable puddle of mangled flesh, broken bones and pulped organs" - you DO have a way with word-paintings --

RE: "That made me smile...sigh." - one could ask for no greater reward.

Being an Atheist is not merely a choice. Many Atheists had a religion of some sort, before they started on a road of enquiry, research, reading of the bible, discovering of violence and hypocrisy. Then when researching, find out where the myths and stories of the bible originally came from, out of the heads of superstitious uneducated people.

By your rules, if you don't 'believe' in god, jesus or the holy ghost, you will go to hell. That is actually blackmail. Very sad to have to live a life like that.

god is not loving, he is hateful, vindictive, and violent. Read your own bible, it is all there.

Show me something that god has done in the last two thousand years.

Has he stopped children starving to death, has he stopped war, has he stopped famine, why did he make a screw worm that gets into the eye of a human being, and burrows into the brain. A very long, slow, painful death.

Why didn't god stop that man from rape and torture of the three girls in cleveland. God had ten years to do something, but did nothing, while the girls were having babies to this evil man.

There were many prayers said for them when they disappeared. Why did your everloving god not stop that man, or alert authories, by his usual method of talking in someones head. Have you heard god in your head, so why didn't he talk to you?

The reason - he doesn't exist.

@Mercedes - if god existed today, and could actually be found - he would be charged with the murder of millions of people, if you believe the bible.


I require proof, data or evidence to come to any conclusion. That's how my brain works. I could 'pretend' to believe, but that would just be to please the other people around me, that's not what's in my heart. 

The Bible is 'proof' for you, just like the Koran is 'proof' for Muslims. Why do you consider your holy book truth but not theirs? If your god is real because the Bible said so, then theirs must be, too. That's how evidence works. 

Having read the Bible (and a multitude of other documents and texts) concerning the Abrahamic religions I've found them to be the collected oral histories of an early tribal people. Comparing the 'history' of the Bible with observations of the known universe, the Bible fails on every count. No world wide flood, people weren't popped into life out of dirt, Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt and the first-borns were never murdered. 

Yes. I said murdered. 

I do require convincing, empirical evidence before I commit my life to a god that has ever demanded a blood sacrifice. 

...or asks me to damn my gay family members.

...or says I can't speak up in church.

..or says that I'm responsible for the consequences of a choice I did not make. 

Can I ask you a question?

Why are you so willing to accept the idea that you're born in sin because some woman you never met got seduced by a snake with a piece of fruit? 

Why are you so willing to follow a murdering god? 

Why are you so willing to commit your life WITHOUT evidence?

I read through much of the previous 9 pages of comments, and the dead horse is now well-beaten from both sides, so I don't want to just re-hash anything that has already been said.

But I do want to point out one thing, at least that applies to me.

I don't require proof that God exists, and I don't believe that most other atheists do, either.  It is just something some of us throw out at believers to shut them down, to be honest.  We know that there is no proof, so we know that demanding that they come up with some will (hopefully) get them to either see the light, or to shut up about  Sure, I can't really speak for all of my fellow non-believers, but i'm sure this applies to many of them.

Unfortunately, all of the "proof" that most believers can bring up, we do not see as undeniable.  In our eyes, the Bible is just a book, of unreliable origins, that is so full of contradictions and unverifiable claims that it simply can't be accepted as fact.  Not even when it says so itself!

And everything else just falls flat.  All of the other "proofs" require a belief to begin with.  The universe was created by God!  That's evidence that he exists!  Well, sure, but only if you already believe in God, and that he created the universe.  If you don't, that just sounds like silly circular logic.


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