It almost seems like atheists don't want to believe in God. Do you just simply not want to believe in God because you don't want to give up your own free will?
ADMIN EDIT: Mercedes has left ThinkAtheist.com on her own accord. This discussion will remain, however do not expect a response from the author.
Hey Mercedes honey,
As I understand your belief, if you accept Jesus into your heart as your personal savior, you get to go to heaven after you die, to be with him there. If you don't accept him, or choose not to believe in him, you get to go to hell and burn forever, after you die.
If that is true, then every single one of us that you are talking to here, is going to burn in horrible torture in hell, for ever.
I am sure that idea does not make you happy. And yet you believe your God is good. That must be a problem for you. Or are you just happy that you will be in heaven, even though all of us will be burning in agony, not for a short while even, but forever?.
For me, I could not worship a god that I believed would deliberately torture anyone. Although I do not believe that there is a god at all, if there was proof that Jesus/God/Holy Spirit really did exist, I would still not worship him/her/it. I would not worship and could not love anyone who could torture people in hell.
So for me, I'm quite relieved that there are no gods. I can't understand anyone wanting to love a god that would be capable of burning a person in hell forever. But you say that you can and do. I find that a little disturbing, to be honest.
There are many ancient books, Mercedes, some much older than the Bible - one example would be the Mesopotamian book, the Enuma Elish, which details the ancient Mesopotamian gods. I don't believe in those either, and neither do you, yet people did. You may be asking how the Mesopotamians could believe in their gods, but a thousand years from now, people will be wondering how you could believe in yours.
I don't suggest that you abandon your religion - I know, more than most here, how deeply Hispanics cling to their beliefs. I know how your Abuela believes that a newborn baby needs to have an egg rubbed over him/her, then broken and thrown away, because the egg draws the evil out of the baby, and by destroying the egg, one has purified the child. You know about that, don't you? Sure you do.
All I ask, is that you learn as much as you can about where your religion comes from, who started it and why, and where they got their information - these are things your church will never tell you.
What do you mean "it all matches each other"? The bible has hundreds of contradiction, inconsistencies, logical fallacies and flat out lies. How can you say it matches anything, including itself?
Oh, I know why. Because you don't question it. If you did question it, you would realize that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny at all...
Ohh boy. I had been pulling for you up until this point Mercedes. Your answer is that the proof you accept as proof is unacceptable to us as proof. Did you ever consider that some of may have looked for proof and not found it? I have. What I have found is coincidences, inferences, mass hysteria, and attempted coercion.
I don't care about my free will, what little I may have of it. If some convincing proof, and by that I mean proof that would actually convince me without threat of torture if I didn't believe it, came my way I would happily believe. It hasn't. I will not take what you or anyone else says as proof. I need to have the proof myself.
If your god doesn't need to prove itself that way, then it doesn't need me to worship it. An omnipotent (and rational) deity would not play these narcissistic head games with the creations it allegedly loves. That is not love. It is all about control. I know I am not in control of much and I don't need to have a lot of control but I do resent attempts to make me believe something that makes no sense just so that I won't be tortured forever. My mind can't do that. that is why I don't believe in your god. It's nothing personal, by the way. I don't believe in any other gods either.
I 'Like" this post, Diane.
Oh, Diane, this is super!
Thanx Diane. This answer I can understand. thankyou for answering my question
I believe in God, but now I can understand more of why you don't. I know its nothing personal. It's not personal for me either. thanx for answering me without telling me I am mental.
Gallup's Mirror I didn't use the word faith in that above comment so I guess I don't know what your are trying to inject into my words. Most people here are telling me im crazy instead of answering my question. I thought I was welcome here. that's what you all said before. I sure don't feel it now. I was just asking a question. The Bible has lots of proof in it. It's not meant to be read literally and its almost like you guys think it should. some parts are figuative or mataphoric, some are historical, but im no bible scholar so I have to rely on what i'm taught. why is that bad?
The Bible has lots of proof in it. It's not meant to be read literally and its almost like you guys think it should. some parts are figuative or mataphoric, some are historical,
And who decides what is figurative or metaphoric or literal? The problem with the bible, Mercedes, is that the parts that people often tout as "historic" are in huge conflict with any other record of history.
Maybe if I put it this way:
A written text is not proof. Yes, you can say that there are historical accuracies in the Bible, and you can even make the claim that the text in the Bible was written by men acting on the word of God (I.E. he told them what to write)
But neither of those items can prove the Bible's truth, because neither of those claims can be proven themselves (there is much doubt on many of the "historical accuracies" noted, and obviously, there's no way to prove that God told those men what to write)
To the rest of us, it's just a book, no different in its "truth" than any other book. So while you've been taught to think of it as the ultimate word, we will never think of it that way. And so, we'll always just think of it as just another book.
A school text book is also suspect. You can't even believe what is written in them, simply based on the fact that it is written in a book. Fortunately, though, most facts in textbooks are verifiable through scientific methods and observations. So while just being written in a book does not make an adequate proof, one can go out and find actual proof to verify the book.
Not so with the Bible.
It's not bad to rely on what you're taught, but it is bad to not consider the source of your information. A church is biased. Your parents are biased. (Mine too!) And really, every source is at least a little biased, but you try to find all sides of an argument, from the most accurate sources you can, and go from there.
And as to being welcome here, you certainly are. Even your question is welcome, and as far as I can read most of us have spent quite a bit of energy trying to answer it in different fair and clear ways. Unfortunately, more than one of those fair and clear answers was met with some form of denial from you that they weren't answering your original question, that you just didn't get it, etc. I can't speak for others but I know that so far in this thread I've tried to answer you in the best way I know how, fairly and truthfully, logically and thoughtfully. But still you're so defensive and bent on winning an argument whose terms you haven't even properly defined (yet another fallacy, by the way), that no matter how hard everyone tries nothing that is said will satisfy you.
So, in short, you are welcome here, but your poor attitude and close-mindedness are not.
Actually, the bible, in and of itself is proof that god does NOT exist. If an all powerful being existed that wants (and actually requires) me to belief in it, then it would show itself to me. It would not require me to "open my heart" because it is supposedly immeasurably more powerful than I am. It would give me the opportunity to accept or reject it's teachings, and if I rejected, then torment for eternity it is (although, since I would not be able to learn from that torment, because, according to xians, it is always "eternal", that just proves god is petty and vindictive, not traits of an "all-loving" god). But punishing people for not believing when he specifically withheld the proof required to believe in him is just, dare I say it - EVIL.