It almost seems like atheists don't want to believe in God. Do you just simply not want to believe in God because you don't want to give up your own free will?
ADMIN EDIT: Mercedes has left ThinkAtheist.com on her own accord. This discussion will remain, however do not expect a response from the author.
Mercedes, to an atheist it sounds like you are saying that it's okay that people are victims of disease, war, murder, rape and so forth because those victims are sinners who fall short of the glory of God.
No these things are not OK. But no one measures up to God's standards. that is why he sent his Son to die for us. No other religion believes in a loving God. Jesus showed us what God in the flesh looks like. We will never be perfect but we can try to live our lives like him and learn from those who have tried and failed, in the Bible and try to live our lives according to God's promise.
For being the supposed source and creator of all things, including the concept of love, God doesn't live up to HUMAN standards. There isn't a parent on Earth that would condemn their child to ETERNAL suffering in Hell for disobeying them. Human beings have a greater capacity for unconditional love than God has ever been credited with. If you were to give a human being the power to change things here on Earth as God is theoretically capable of doing, one of us fix SOMETHING. No more disease, no more natural disasters, no more threat of nuclear holocaust, no more having to watch the skies for potentially devastating asteroids. And if someone DID have that power, and didn't use it to help out mankind, that person would be vilified by the rest of humanity. And again, even if this life we live is only a temporary place that we pass through in order to be "judged for our actions", would any good person condemn another person to be banished from eternal paradise for making a poor choice during what amounts to an span of time equal to the blink of an eye compared to all eternity? This is what your "God" threatens us with. We are better than that.
Well said, Shawn!
He came himself on a sinful suicide mission last I looked at the theology. Also the theology is satisfied by death in bed of old age. The whole crucifixion was just unnecessary production values to impress the hillbillies.
Here's another question for you Mercedes: Can you explain your statement about jesus? How does his death (which we all experience, which makes that nothing special) and his ascension to "heaven" (which can hardly be considered a "sacrifice" (if you believe such a place exists) absolve me of anything at all? And how does my belief or lack thereof have any effect whatsoever on the situation? Couldn't we just cut out the middle man and say that if we don't believe in god in the first place, we are all doomed to hell? And why is that a standard? Why is it not just living a good life, treating your fellow man with caring and respect? Can you explain how "belief" would have any baring at all on whether people should be punished or rewarded for all eternity?
Yes, yes, we've all heard the pitch. You're not engaging with what I said.
The point is that God could prevent these things but does not. Why wouldn't he? You have said that we all fall short, we don't measure up to God's standards. Therefore, you must be saying that we bring this on ourselves; or, in other words, we deserve to suffer evil because we are not good enough for God. Do you think people should be allowed to be raped because they are not perfect?
"We have all sinned and fallens short of the glory of God" - Out of curiosity, how and why would you know that? How can you possibly know, for a fact, that we have all "fallen short"? And what is "the glory of god"? You use that term because you were indoctrinated into your superstition, but I am betting that you actually have no idea whatsoever what that phrase actually means.
The fact that we are "not perfect" is a given, since nothing is technically "perfect" unless specifically intended for one use only and used in a very limited way, so to say people aren't "perfect", I have to wonder what, exactly, you would consider a "perfect person" to be.
And if you want to compare people to your god, I would say that many people are much more "perfect" than your god. Your god is a self-confessed ignorant, homophobic (if you believe his followers, since it doesn't actually say so in the bible), petty, emotionally unstable, irrational, illogical, lying, raving, malicious madman with no parenting or communication skills whatsoever. It expects people to "believe" it it, yet gives people the intelligence to think for themselves and then provides more than sufficient evidence to NOT believe in it. If we somehow "displease" it in the one life we have, it will punish us for all eternity with no hope of redemption (which can, in no way at all, be considered loving caring or teaching). I know some pretty horrible people, but can't think of a single one that is less "perfect" than the god you so love and admire.
I think it's actually pretty ironic that you can even say such a thing with a straight face.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
We could have sworn you said the Ark didn't leave until five.
The White Unicorn Family
@Mercedes - So because we have all sinned that gives god the 'right 'to
to have millions die, a slow, painful death with starvation, beatings, torture to babies and children who have not had the time to actually commit any sin.
And this is alright with you? If your god actually picked out the bad guys, and smited them OK, but millions of innocents are left to die?
You actually believe and condone this? Would you want anybody to die for your sins?
That is the thing, I, as an Atheists don't and cant want anybody to die for me.
An important principle in the christian belief system is that no one sidesteps the "less than perfect" classification. It is a DNA issue whereby the so-called tainted blood is supposedly passed on through each generation. This concept ensures that all homo sapiens fall short of the mark and will require the process of salvation at some point during their mortal existence. So those innocent children and babies who are exposed to disease and starvation through no fault of their own are equally fallible and deserving of judgement.
I find this one of the most incomprehensible aspects of Abrahamic faith.
In Mercedes' defense, I believe that her point was that mankind commits awful acts against each other because we are sinners. I don't think she intends to imply that people starve and/or go through other sufferings because they are sinners.
Of course, the point you and others have made still stands. There is a lot of suffering in this world that is not through direct actions of others, to which God seems to have turned a blind eye.
The cherished gift of free will means that God must allow evil acts to occur, but it does not mean that he must let innocents suffer and die from natural catastrophes (droughts, floods, etc.)