It almost seems like atheists don't want to believe in God. Do you just simply not want to believe in God because you don't want to give up your own free will?
ADMIN EDIT: Mercedes has left ThinkAtheist.com on her own accord. This discussion will remain, however do not expect a response from the author.
Then why would she be here, Rocky, asking these questions?
You were trained to do this? Wow Rocky that's creepy - kudos for escaping :)
Though persistent, I find JW'a to be quite peaceful; Southern Baptists, to be extremely belligerent, in some cases, perfectly willing to pound some old time religion into you.
I haven't posted this in a while, it might be time to trot it out again:
This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:
John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the shit out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His ass."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the shit out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"
John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the shit out of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss His ass?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary: She blushes.
John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary: She looks positively stricken.
John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"
Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary: She faints.
John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.
This page is http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank Copyright © Rev. James Huber, (firstname.lastname@example.org) All rights reserved.
Permission is hereby granted to duplicate for personal use. For other uses, please see http://www.jhuger.com/copyright.
Did anybody catch that guys and gals? Rev. James Huber!
Sadly, Rocky, I fear you might be right, but hope you're not.
@Mercedes - This a verse out of your bible - from a god that is supposed to love people, born in his image -
EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.
Why would this be - that he is killing babies.
I used to play a game with the versing folks. I looked it up and read the context. Nine times out of ten the meaning in context was nothing like out of context. Sounds to me like that is lying, liars for the lord.
Nothing really new there. Before the Hebrews heard the 1st commandment they made a golden calf. Upshot is the priests of that god (before there were priests of course) went on a divinely sanctioned rampage and slaughtered those who worshiped the calf.
Of course killing the first born males was an iffy thing. 1/3 to 1/2 had already died of childhood diseases. One always needs to look at things in terms of their times.
It comes with the territory of having an open mind. I'm sure everyone agrees that having an open mind is a good quality--namely the consideration of all possibilities, the weighing of merits, the plusses and minuses of each option, that sort of thing. However, there are limits. It's one thing to be open to all possibilities, but if one truly has a discerning mind, one must separate logical, sensible notions from every cockamamie idea that might come down the pike. To do so, one needs proof. If you expect me to accept the idea of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omni-loving Big Guy in the sky, I'm not going to take your word for it, nor am I going to accept anyone else's word for it, either. If I did, the big guy might as well be an enormous tortoise or George Burns or that thing playing marbles at the end of "Men In Black."
I do not usually reply to these discussions much anymore, but you have gone to far Mercedes.
Instead of god having his only son killed, why didn't he just plant a tree?
After creating the whole universe in all it's diversity, another tree that could forgive sin seems a very simple matter!
We now know the universe is a very big place, consider there could be billions of worlds with god's imperfect creations that need a jebus sacrifice. He has to abide by the same rules, you know.
I still cannot get my mind around the concept of an all powerful god that cannot forgive sin without a blood sacrifice of some kind.
I guess we humans have a higher standard than your god, no animals were harmed during the making of this film.