It almost seems like atheists don't want to believe in God. Do you just simply not want to believe in God because you don't want to give up your own free will?
ADMIN EDIT: Mercedes has left ThinkAtheist.com on her own accord. This discussion will remain, however do not expect a response from the author.
Of course Thor exists, I saw him on the Internet.
The Internet is the ONE and ONLY TRUE doG!!!
So... Does that make Google, like...the Pope?
Hmmm.......more of a Poogle, I think. :D
Mercedes, have you read the Bhagavad Vita? In it Arjuna has conversations with Shri Krishna. This particular epic predates the bible and I can tell you has more beautiful prose and no obscenities described in the bible. Do you think since in several pages Shri Krishna is mentioned, is he/she/it real and if so why don't you believe in Shri Krishna?
It almost seems like atheists don't want to believe in God.
You have already passed judgment on atheists by this statement! By what authority do you claim to do this? How can you make such a blanket statement about people you seem to know so little about? Don't you think instead of asking us this question, which it appears to me, you have a predetermined answer to spend time on your own and read about atheism, then maybe you can come here and we have a discussion over a cup of coffee or cold malt whichever is your preferred beverage!
Do you just simply not want to believe in God because you don't want to give up your own free will?
What has god to do with free will? Forget the free will being an illusion, why would god give you free will, which you seem to think you have, and then have a problem you using it? Don't you think you make your god to look ridiculous?
I have also seen your comments regarding the bible. You so much want to find the bible true because it says so of itself, well even Mohammed says the same of the Koran. Do you take the Koran to be true since it is also claimed to be the word of god? If not what are your reasons for rejecting it?
Do you think we have a duty to convince you of the truth of atheism? To what end? Are you looking reasons to be an atheist or what are you looking for? Or rather do you want us to join whatever cult it is you belong to?
You have dismissed the comparison between Santa Claus and god as being a weak one without providing reasons for doing so. The god hypothesis, is unnecessary and it is just that, a hypotheis for whom men have killed brother, sister, mother and father and for whom still some idiots in the middle east are killing each other over for a promise of some desert land that was made in the same book! How ridiculous god believers can be! No wonder some people pray that god save me from your followers!
Have you read Dante? He says "since god did not exist, one had to be invented". Look at the gods that have been named since the when man could write and you will see they are all creations of men. As man got imaginative, so were his gods in fact this is why I think the Greek gods like Apollo and Jupiter are grander than the christian god whose main modus operandi is killing and more killing, for the Greeks were more imaginative.
I wasn't passing judgment I was just observing what I've seen lately on think atheist. It's the way it came across to me. I haven't read those books. Maybe I will have to to understand what you mean
You could just start by actually reading the bible - and remember not to just keep turning pages when you don't understand what you are reading; stop and study what you are reading and make sure you understand it. That is all you need to do to get that god-psychosis out of your head and become an Atheist.
Mercedes, and I needed to add that you nor anyone else has defined a god that is internally coherent.
Mercedes you keep on bringing up the bible as proof of god ,so i think it would surprise you to learn that a fair number of the atheists here ,myself included, only became atheists after reading the whole bible through. Personaly i actually find the bible one the the greatest arguments for not believing in the christian god.
Personally i will be perfectly fine to start off with not needing any more proof for god than i would need for proof that my next door neighbor exists
Once again, I will answer as many of your questions in one post, to avoid reply spamming.
To your main question:
We ask for so much proof because proof is what makes reality real. If I tell you that I can fly and you should worship me because of it, you will demand that I prove my ability to fly. Same reason why we ask for proof for god.
The reason we ask for "so much" proof is because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And so far there has been none that holds up under scrutiny and doesn't fall back on circular logic or faith.
How do you so easily dismiss the Bible as proof for God's existence then?
The bible was created in around 300AD by Emperor Constantine during the Council of Nicaea. Before that point it was just a loose collection of writings and stories, which were then collected, reviewed and either used or discarded.
For example, the story where Jesus kills one of his friends as a child, just so he can resurrect him to prove a point. Or the story in which adult Jesus EXPLODES a snake for who knows what reason.
Many stories were excluded because they were either considered heretical by the new Emperor or because they were too far-fetched even for a book with a talking snake and Jewish Lich, like the resurrection story where Jesus comes out of the tomb as a giant, and is quickly joined by his pal the giant talking cross!
The reason we dismiss the bible so easily, Mercedes, is because we have read it, several times, cover to cover, and then we took the things we read and compared them to the real world without the blinders that belief places on you.
If you take the same inquisitive approach you take when buying a car and use it on the bible, you will know what we mean.
Here is a video by Darkmatter2525 that shows how it would be if you buy a car in the same way people deal with religion. Enjoy: If God were a car.
It's not made up. It's been verified historically too.
No, it hasn't. Zero evidence of Adam and Eve or the garden, zero evidence of global flood, zero evidence for Jewish Exodus, barely any evidence for historical Jesus, and so on.
We're supposed to revere him because he made us.
Do your parents expect you to worship and revere them? Or do they go out of their way to earn your love and respect? Do they threaten you if you don't love and revere them? Will they murder you if you don't? The bible says they should.
We make a car and we drive it, we breed dogs and we train them, why wouldn't the God of the universe ask for reverence?
Cars are inanimate objects, they do not revere us. Dogs have the mental capacity of very small children and are bread for the purpose of being our happy, somewhat useless slaves. You first need to provide evidence for what god you are talking about, provide evidence that he did in fact create us or the universe, and then explain why a perfect being would even need reverence.
I for one drive my car, but I also clean it with my hands, I fix it if it is broken, and I care for it a lot more than your god seems to care about his creation. I lose my shit if my car stops working or even sounds "off", god has no problem with thousands dying every day and according to the OT (Old Testament) really enjoys it.
I have a dog, but I do not demand its love or reverence. All I demand from it is to stop pissing on the kitchen floor.
But why is the bar set so high? what's wrong with believing in God? Why do you ask for so much proof? .
What's wrong with believing in Bigfoot, or aliens, or Zeus, or Thor, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn? We set the bar high because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, Mercedes.
God is invisible so we can't prove that, so that's why Jesus came
Genesis 32:30 would disagree with you. Apparently God is visible, at least according to Jacob he is. And didn't Jesus come to be a human sacrifice to convince himself to forgive us for the crime he knew we would commit, just to save us from the place he created to torture us for committing the crime he knew we would commit all along?
comparing God to the tooth fairy is really a bad comparison I think. It's not the same thing. None of those are the same thing.
Why is it not the same thing? All are "invisible" and have magic powers and people believe in them without any tangible evidence. If you would like, we can also compare your god to any one of these. Those are just Greek by the way. There are still around 2500 that could be listed as well.
Not really. The Bible is centuries worth of history which is much more proof than the tooth fairy.
Not really. The bible does have some history in it, but getting a few names and places correct is hardly proof of anything. If that is the standard by which we will hold up evidence then Harry Potter is also true because it has real places in it, same with all of the other religious texts from ancient civilizations far older than Christianity.
Why does everyone seem to get all defensive and say I'm mentally ill for believing in God? You're the second person to do that. It's kind of annoying.
Saying that something is in your head does not make you mentally ill. Love is pretty much in your head, yet it is not an illness. What they are saying (sometimes poorly) is that it is your imagination and your brain that create your idea of god.
Lots of people believe in God. More than don't.
Lots of people believed in all the other gods as well, doesn't make them any more real. Having a lot of people agree on something does not make it right. Lots of people believed in Nazi Germany, does that make Hitler a good guy? At one point worshiping Jupiter and the Roman pantheon was the largest religion in the known world, didn't make them true.
God is bigger than that. He shouldn't have to respond to 20 questions. He created the universe. that's plenty of proof of his existence I think.
He is so big that we can't even find him. He should absolutely respond to much more than 20 questions for the piss poor job he has done on this world alone.
You need to prove that he created the universe, Mercedes. Saying there is plenty of proof and presenting none to be examined is not proof, it is wishful thinking.
What if God chooses not to show up that way? Why isn't people's experiences enough evidence.
Because, again, Mercedes, as I have said in one of my replies to you in a different topic, I have faith that there are no gods, I feel that there are no gods and I have had personal experience in a world without gods.
Does that mean that everyone should just stop believing because I had an experience to the contrary of said belief? When it comes to dealing with the real world, feelings don't add up to dick. How far would have medicine advanced if we built our cures based on what we "feel" will work, and when it doesn't we refuse to accept the outcome because we have "faith" that it will work one day.
No. I'm saying that it seems to me like you easily reject the evidence that DOES exist on his existence.
Because that evidence does not hold up. All evidence for god ends up leading back to the bible, which is a terrible source of "truth" or facts, and then it falls back to "faith" which is believing in something WITHOUT evidence.
If there was so much evidence out there to prove your god, why is faith such a virtue?
If God were fake we wouldn't have the Bible. That is proof. So is Jesus. His covenant resolved the others so all we need to do is believe in him.
If Krishna were fake we wouldn't have the Bhagavad Gita, if Anubis and Horus were not real we wouldn't have the Book of the Dead, and so on. Every religion that has ever existed can make that claim, Mercedes. That is why the bible is not proof.
That's a really stupid comparison. I don't see how you equate Harry Potter with the Bible.
Not at all. It is pretty accurate. Both books are written by a human, both have lots of fans, both have magic and both have some mentions of real places. The difference is that you know who wrote Harry Potter, and that it happened in your lifetime, which is what makes it so easy to dismiss as a "stupid comparison."
It's not a circular argument though. God exists within us and we know his presence in many ways. The bible is one of them. I don't get it.
It is a circular argument, Mercedes. God exists because the bible is proof that god exists, and the bible is proof that god exists because god exists, and it goes in circles like that, providing no real evidence for either being a valid claim. Once again, that argument can be applied to any of the ancient holy books, and by your reasoning that would prove all of them to be true as well.
Belle, That's also a bad comparison. God is not fake.
You are making an unsubstantiated claim. You say god is not fake, we say prove it, you don't. You say god is not fake, I say the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not fake. And the Hindu guy over there in India says that Lord Krishna is not fake, and he has just as much conviction and faith that he is right as you do.
I still don't get why the Bible isn't viewed as evidence though. People say it's a bronze age book but that's really not true. It's multiple books. Eye witness accounts and history. Why is that not proof? what about Jesus? that's all the proof you need.
Because using the bible as evidence is circular logic. In order to use the bible as evidence of god, you first need to prove that god exists, because the book is evidence only if you already believe that god exists.
It is a bronze age book because the stories in it were written during the bronze age. There are no eye witnesses in the bible. The earliest gospels in the NT were written 40-100 years AFTER Jesus died. There is no history in the bible aside from some locations and names. When compared to verified history of the ancient world, it fails.
Jesus is not proof either. There is very little evidence for the existence of Yeshua, and even if there was, there is no proof that he performed any of the miracles attributed to him, as they were also attributed to plenty of other ancient deities that came long before him. Even if he did walk on water, heal the sick, and kill that one tree for not growing fruit in off season, it still does not prove that he is god.
why you reject the Bible. It's not a fake. If it were it would have been revealed as such a LONG time ago.
The bible had 2000 years of bloodshed to cement its "authenticity." It takes work to dig out roots that deep. The religion has mutated so much over the years that people will believe just because it makes them feel good, and ignore any argument and contradiction because they want to believe.
Simply saying it is not fake does not make it true. People who argued the validity of the bible a LONG time ago were tortured, hung, quartered, burned at the stake or imprisoned with such zeal by the church that it took this long for the church to lose its grip on power and allow people a safe way to voice their disagreement.
The other questions seem to be answered quite well by everyone else, so let me ask you a question, Mercedes.
Why do you believe in the god of the bible? And please, if you can, answer without using the bible, or god as evidence. What worldly, observable, testable evidence do you have to support your god over any other god?
And if I may ask another question; I remember the wonderful dancing Belle did around answering this one...
There are over 2000 gods in human history. There are 3 likely scenarios, you tell me, with your knowledge of the world, with access to the information needed on the internet, and with using just simple probability, which one is the most likely.
1. All gods are true. (All 2800+, even though they contradict each other at every turn).
2. One god is true. (It just happens to be the one you were taught to believe in).
3. No gods are true.
Which of those 3 scenarios is most likely to be the real one?
Wow, that took a while to type. Hopefully it helps at least a bit, and if at any point I sounded mean or condescending, it was not my intent, it is pretty early in the morning and my dog keeps farting.