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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 9, 2013 at 5:24pm

"Learning that we're alone in the universe, that no one hears or answers our prayers, that humanity is entirely the product of random events, that we have no more intrinsic dignity than non-human and even non-animate clumps of matter, that we face certain annihilation in death, that our sufferings are ultimately pointless, that our lives and loves do not at all matter in a larger sense, ... "

All that is just vanity, cowardice and weakness.  

"... those who commit horrific evils and elude human punishment get away with their crimes scot free ... "

He has a point here, at the moment.  That's kind of the most difficult question in the whole atheist morality problem.  

If Damon Linker gets his view of atheism from AC Grayling, then I'm not surprised he thinks it's a load of pointless idiotic drivel.  I can't understand why Grayling wrote that stupid lazy book. He's an embarrassment. 

Mr Linker should come and look at this site, and he might think again. 

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Permalink Reply by kOrsan on March 9, 2013 at 5:30pm

He has a point here, at the moment.  That's kind of the most difficult question in the whole atheist morality problem. 

No he doesn't. Pretending like "bad" people are going to hell just so you can jerk off your conscience to it and feel good doesn't mean it's any better than reality, which is that nothing happens to them apart from death.

It's not in the least bit a point, let alone a valid one.

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 9, 2013 at 5:32pm

"... nothing happens to them apart from death."

In that case, he's correct. 

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Permalink Reply by kOrsan on March 9, 2013 at 5:37pm

In that case, he's correct.

That doesn't make it a point in favor of anything. Yes, they get away with their crimes. Deal with it. Instead of facing the truth like adults, they try to make themselves feel superior by making up fairytales about how bad guys are gonna get tortured for eternity.

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 9, 2013 at 5:40pm

But we're not talking about the religious view, we're talking about the atheist view. 

You and Damon Linker both agree that in the atheist view, "Yes, they get away with their crimes. Deal with it."

so...

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Permalink Reply by kOrsan on March 9, 2013 at 5:45pm

The difference is that I accept it for the reality that it is, while he's one of those people who use it as an argument that there must be a god because otherwise it would be oh so unfair. I do not accept that as a fair point for either that atheism is "terrible" or bleak, or that there should be a god to fix it. How does it make

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 9, 2013 at 5:48pm

Sorry - if it was true, then that would make atheism terrible and bleak.  However, it's not [completely] true - but we're unable to give coherent reasons why that is the case. 

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Permalink Reply by kOrsan on March 9, 2013 at 6:05pm

How does that make atheism bleak and terrible? Leave aside that it's a law of nature, and not really related to morality, just as physics aren't.

If someone dies they're dead. They're gone. What else do you want from them? What better punishment is there than death? To want there to be everlasting and unavoidable torment for those you dislike is just childish revenge. It's like chucking toys at the kid you just had a fight with even after his parents already put him in the corner to be alone.

We all joke about how we'd love to see people go to hell. I've known, and known about, many people I'd love to see get punished. But honestly I'd still rather have death being the ultimate end to these people than some sick shit like endless torture.

When talking about morality, it often helps to take words people use and look at their direct opposites. So if "no hell" makes atheism bleak and terrible, then the author implies the opposite, hell existing, is what? Cheerful and wonderful?

Eternal torture is cheerful and wonderful. Some morality he got.

Let's also not forget that "justice" is only one side of the coin. What they love to leave out is the other side, which is that hell is mainly used for coercion. Of course it's bleak and terrible when you can't tell people they'll go to hell unless they become your slaves. Yeah, atheism is a bitch.

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 9, 2013 at 6:15pm

"If someone dies they're dead. They're gone. What else do you want from them? What better punishment is there than death?" 

Everyone dies, good and bad.  Dying is not a punishment. 

Damon Linker says only:

"... those who commit horrific evils and elude human punishment get away with their crimes scot free ... "

- he doesn't mention hell.  I presume he means the whole religious moral system which, to a Christian or Moslem, is run by God.  We should leave aside the question of whether it is true (we don't think it is) or whether it works (it works OK, sometimes very well, sometimes very badly).  The point is, there's a coherent system in place aimed at preventing people from being bad and rewarding people for being good.  It's based on a fable?  It doesn't work very well?  Those are beside the point.  The fact is, there is one. 

If it is really true that without God, evil is never punished and good is never rewarded - then Mr Linker is right, and you can pass me the revolver now. 

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Permalink Reply by kOrsan on March 9, 2013 at 6:24pm

I know death isn't a punishment, but the death of someone you dislike should be satisfaction enough for you. Instead you want to pursue the issue with endless agony.

"... those who commit horrific evils and elude human punishment get away with their crimes scot free ... "

- he doesn't mention hell.

What else does it imply? His point is that we need god/hell, because otherwise evil goes unpunished, and that's why atheism is terrible

  The point is, there's a coherent system in place aimed at preventing people from being bad and rewarding people for being good.

Yeah I call it canine ethics, because it's basically the system dogs operate on. Brilliant.

You clearly agree with him, which is sad to say. Well, sorry, but some evil, if not most, does indeed go unpunished. If that's incentive enough for you to take the bullet, oh well.

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 9, 2013 at 6:28pm

I agree with his point that atheism doesn't have a coherent moral theory which matches the religious one.  Religion 1, Atheism 0. 

Permalink Reply by Wesley on March 10, 2013 at 9:33am

"If it is really true that without God, evil is never punished and good is never rewarded - then Mr Linker is right, and you can pass me the revolver now."

fortunately this isn't true....  Evil is punished and since there is no god we have to do it ourselves.   Some people escape punishment....some innocent people go to jail.   Its not fucking fair, but we do the best we can..  Hopefully we can continue to improve how we understand and deal with each other.  There is no need for a god for this and in fact the idea of one gets in the way of our improving this condition.

I really find it ironic how the religious paradigm for good and bad treatment is held up against atheism...    There is SO much unfairness in the world we are living but the religious would have you believe that some imaginary sky father is going to balance all the scales on judgement day....  How the fuck do you balance out a lifetime of misery (for some) regardless of how nice the vacation spot you get for eternity?...   Its like the mafia waterboarding you for 60 years but then you get to live in a luxury spa after that.  On the other side.. How does even the most excruciating torture forever pay for the evil that some people have done?......   It doesn't.   It can't.   If there was a god he's sick and insane and definately not all-knowing or perfect.

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