Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jewelz on June 30, 2011 at 2:12am

I will look into the poly groups you mentioned, but once again, my concern is not with polyamory or open relationships. I have numerous friends in these situations with stable happy households. My concern is with the implications of legalized polygamy particularly in a country which is still so religious. You're basically saying "well there's no data out there and no one in the secular polygamous community is going to discuss their lifestyle publicly (I didn't ask for video clips of children), but it should be legal because I believe it should be legal." That's no way to educate people if you're pushing for legal changes.

 

You clearly feel passionately about this subject, and that's not a bad thing, but I've been incredibly polite in my responses and made no blanket statements about what's "wrong" with the poly community so comments like "add that to the long list of things you're wrong about seem uncalled for. Responses like this and calling other people "unapologetic assholes" does say much about your emotional state. It's also not tolerated on this site.

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Permalink Reply by Joreth InnKeeper on June 30, 2011 at 2:39am

And once again my point is that if we remove the religious patriarchy from the equation, the way we have mostly-done with monogamy, you don't have any of those implications as a systemic problem.  Monogamy suffered from all the same problems as those handful of religious cults that make the news, but over time, we gradually gave women more and more power and freedom, and now people can choose to enter into monogamous relationships for love without the misogyny.  Monogamy was not banned, the actual abuses were banned, and the same tactic should be taken with polygamy.

 

There *is* data out there.  I just pointed out one researcher specifically doing research on families with children.  There is an entire section of the Kinsey Institute dedicated to polyamory, and CARAS is another organization doing research into alternative sexualities.  Data is hard to come by, but the data *so far* show that it's the authoritative, patriarichal families that are harmful, not the structure itself.  You can also see this in the research on gay & lesbian families - when there is no clear division of labor based on gender (because they're the same gender, you can't do that), you get much more egalitarian households, and the children end up better adjusted.  Poly people do discuss their families publicly, but only about as much as monogamous people do.  There are blogs and we certainly talk about it at the meetings, but you are asking for a discriminated minority to post intimate details of how their families work online for your own curiosity.  We tend to talk about it amongst ourselves, where someone from Family Services won't stumble upon the discussion and take the kids away from otherwise functioning homes, the way that atheists occasionally lose kids for their atheist beliefs.

 

Frankly, I don't care what you "tolerate" on this site.  He is an unapologetic asshole, he admitted it by clearly stating that he would continue to do what had been pointed out to him was offensive.  That makes him both unapologetic and an asshole.  This whole tone argument is incredibly tiresome, and usually the reason why people like me end up losing our tempers in the first place.

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Permalink Reply by Arcus on June 25, 2011 at 8:16am

Polygamy is legal in a number of countries and it is strongly interrelated with the general gender roles in the MENA region - especially the male misogyny. (France is an example of the antonym - male philogyny.)

If banning polygamy is an attack on basic human rights and deprive countless people of a harmless part of their human nature, I would advise them to seek political asylum in Saudi Arabia (but only if you are a man). They have a number of, both factual and ironically meant, lovely family values such as that.

Yet I don't see polygamists emigrating in droves, which makes me doubt it's particularly important to them as they seem to prefer complaining on the internet instead of actually solving their dilemma.  

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Permalink Reply by Ava Wilson on June 21, 2011 at 9:26pm

Because most people believe in marriage between two people. The genders involved is up for debate. But allowing polygamy opens up doors for (particularly men) to live dual lives without any fear of prosecution, with many wives (which I've heard quite a few stories about people doing). I do not believe, whatsoever, in multiple marriage partners. Monogamy is a trait I believe that has arose out of evolutionary process; a stable set of parents in the household is better for the offspring. I think if you want to be poly-amorous, that's your choice, but I don't believe it should be demonstrated in front of children, nor should poly-amorous couples reap the benefits of a traditional marriage. Although I believe that marriage is between two people, I don't believe there is a limit on the gender identification of those two persons.

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Permalink Reply by Greg Leavitt on June 22, 2011 at 12:42am

Monogamy is a trait that arose out of a evolutionary process?  I really hope you're borrowing some terms from biology to reference something you mean in sociology.  Otherwise I think you're in troubled territory.  Numerous animals, including humans, demonstrate both traits; establishing stable child rearing environments and polygamy.  Being a good parent is a totally separate trait from being a advantageous breeding partner.    There are plenty of humans and other animals that set up housekeeping with one individual, but choose to breed with another.

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Permalink Reply by james d on June 24, 2011 at 5:01pm

well put! monogamy is a social construct, not biological... the amount of cheating that happens in society today exposes this point that one partner for life is a myth that needs to follow the dodo bird..

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Permalink Reply by Arcus on June 26, 2011 at 4:30pm

"monogamy is a social construct, not biological."

It's not a dichotomy. Institutionalized monogamy is a social construct created to provide the best possible conditions for rearing productive members of society in a socially and behaviorally optimal 

How many great modern humans have been the result of an upbringing in a polygamist relationship vs how many ungreat ones? Just because western cultural morals are restrictive on the issue does not immediately prove them wrong.

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Permalink Reply by Eix Man on June 30, 2011 at 10:44am

How many great modern humans have been the result of an upbringing in a polygamist relationship vs how many ungreat ones?

You're asking for data on a segment of society that's been pushed underground and criminalized. That's like asking how many great modern humans were brought up by gay people during the period while we were still jailing people for being homosexual. Sure, we may happen to be able to name one or two by luck alone, but the statistics are never going to be reliable. And I think you know it, too.

Nice passive-aggressive arguing style though. "I'm going to ask for data that is impossible because of the legal structure of my country (a legal structure based on a historically religious reasoning, and nothing to do with biology whatsoever), and when you can't produce it I will claim this supports my otherwise untenable argument". (Not to mention the lack of definition for 'greatness' - a beautifully weaselled word that can be defined by you to mean anything that happens to suit your pre-ordained conclusion)

Lack of proof is not proof of lack.

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Permalink Reply by Steve on June 22, 2011 at 1:53am

Monogamy is extremely rare in nature. They are very few animals that form life-long bonds. And some recent studies suggest that even in those cases, the partners will sleep around.

 

It's in a species best interest to spread genetic traits around. Monogamy runs counter to that. The compromise would be serial monogamy where pairs have children and stay together some time to raise them, then move on to have children with another partner. That's what most humans do.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Joreth InnKeeper on June 23, 2011 at 12:59am

Actually, historically speaking, a "stable set of parents" has never been the preferred household to raise children, nor has it ever been "better" for children. Historically, households had dozens of children because of the high infant mortality rate, and they also had more than 2 adults, because 2 adults cannot possibly maintain a household of dozens of children. Households usually had the parents, the grandparents, and even aunts and uncles.

 

Going back further, we were not segregated into "households", children were effectively raised by a communal effort. It wasn't until the Industrial Revolution that sent individuals out on their own into large cities that the "family" got knocked down to just two parents and a handful of kids. The fewer adults there are to contribute to the household, the worse off everyone is, with stress, financial difficulties, and care and attention to give to children.

 

Even within monogamous families, parents find other adults to help with the childcare, from daycare to babysitting grandparents to the public school system.  There are absolutely no studies and no evidence to suggest that children being raised by multiple adults is harmful and plenty to show that it is beneficial.  What being raised in a polyamorous household teaches children is that there is an abundance of love, that they have multiple adults they can count on, and effective communication and conflict resolution skills that are mandatory to maintain functional poly relationships.

 

What, exactly, do you think is being "demonstrated in front of children" other than communication and affection?  And how is communication and affection being demonstrated in front of children harmful?

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Permalink Reply by Greg Leavitt on June 22, 2011 at 12:47am

What advantage do you think that would have?  Couples who choose to raise children should both be obliged to the financial responsibilities of raising them.  Additionally, getting married to someone you love is a great thing to do.  Creating an "incorporated" family has plenty of advantages.

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Permalink Reply by Greg Leavitt on June 22, 2011 at 11:39am

Seriously?  What advantages are there.  I'll just list a few.  I shouldn't really assume this is for the whole world, as there are plenty of other models out there, but for the U.S. Healthcare is shared for incorporated families.   Assets and custody and power of attorney are streamlined in married couples.  Financially, partners can pool their income for greater purchasing power, whereas roommates can't.

 

I think your argument is a "baby with the bathwater" scenario.  Sure, some people are feeling discriminated by not being able to marry.  The solution isn't to deny everyone. So your solution is to abuse, discriminate and neglect everyone?  The easy solution is to not discriminate against certain groups.

 

We have a healthcare problem in the U.S. right now.  Would your solution be to burn the hospitals, and hang the doctors?  There.  Now no-one gets healthcare.  Problem solved.  Apparently that's the solution you have for discriminating partnership laws too?  And just for the record,  People can get married, and do, without the without government's involvement.  They just don't get any of the benefits.   So I don't actually see the state "policing", but they don't hand out the benefits to any couple that ask.  That's the problem and it isn't just "drama".

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