What would you consider evidence?

This is meant to be a hysterical thread for any jokes you want to make about this topic but also to serve as a serious place for me to understand further how Atheists think...

I considered myself an Atheist for quite a while but it just never felt right. I wasn't really being "me," but I was trying to please someone else...anyway....now I'm being me. I DO think there is a TON of evidence and proof that God does in fact exist.

But this thread is not about me. It's about you. I want to know what would it take for you to say, "YES that's it!" What "evidence" or "proof" are you looking for? What EXACTLY would you need to see to be able to say, "Wow yes, there is a God..."....A scientific journal article? A scientific experiment? Richard Dawkins saying it? lol...What? What could possibly persuade you to suddenly believe that there is a God.

And because I know it's probably going to happen there are some rules for participation

Rule #1. No spinning this back on me. I'm asking YOU what YOU think. If you want to ask me what i think start a different thread for that.

Rule #2. No ducking the question. Saying, "the "onus" is on you to prove." No. That's not going to fly here. We're not discussing the "on us" argument. We're discussing what would it take for you to be convinced. A lightning bolt up your ass on a sunny day? A surfer Jesus knock on your door? lol...OK I'm being sarcastic. But seriously WHAT?

Have at it!

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Permalink Reply by Pope Beanie on January 26, 2017 at 1:00pm
There are so many wrong statements or assumptions here, responding to them would clearly become useless acts akin to digging rabbit holes to find some kind of end to them.

All I can say at this point is I'm happy to see that you give credibility to science, and would encourage you to keep learning and investigating. Science (or atheism, for that matter) cannot be used to disprove God's existence, nor (say) any imagined entity such as Russell's Teapot orbiting the sun.

When you can accurately explain why the Bible makes more sense than the Koran you may understand how science makes more sense than religion. You think we believe that "matter came from nothing"? You are clearly burdened with a misintepretation of the most current, scientific observations or language.

"God did it" mantras and choruses may help people feel good, but they won't bring about discoveries in medicine, genetics, technology, and similar scientifically originated knowledge that even yourself depend on every day, if not every hour or minute.
Permalink Reply by Pope Beanie on January 28, 2017 at 2:55pm
Straw man. Scientists are not trying to disprove theism, deism, or anything supernatural. In fact theistic scientists exist, who believe that God designed natural law and their "calling" or purpose is to discover *how* natural law works.

Excitement followed by sensationalism made the term "God particle" popular, but now that predictions of its existence ring true, it is no longer necessary to gloss over its existence as some kind of special, supernatural mystery. It was a natural mystery until finally discovered by particle physicists, EVEN IF God designed natural law.
Permalink Reply by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on January 26, 2017 at 1:50pm

@Gregg Can you give one word (Yes\No) to these questions please.

Do you believe your God created the Universe?

Do you pray (communicate) with your God?

Do you believe you will go to a place called Heaven to live with your God after a Day of Judgement?

Permalink Reply by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on January 26, 2017 at 4:17pm

We have some things in common. Both of us are atheists when it comes to the Hindu Gods. Can you tell me why you do not believe Vishnu or Shiva Gods? I mean over one billion people believe that to be the case and they hardly know of Yahweh.  

You asked us for evidence for the non-existence of your God but can you show us some evidence for you lack of belief in Vishnu? Does that help you see our point? We just do not believe it. That is all.

Thanks for your answers Gregg. I must have been out as I missed the communication. What form did it take as maybe I just did not recognise it?  I find it strange that the Creator of the Universe could not deliver it in a manner that would make sense to me. 

Is the LORD the same as YHWH or is the LORD the Holy Spirit? Sorry I am not up on the workings of every sect and having spent an hour with some Mormons earlier I am reeling a bit. They were kneeling down on my living room floor with their hands clasped telling me that they were in direct communication with the Creator of the Universe on my behalf!! They even called me Brother Reg!!

They also spoke of their souls going to Heaven, a bit like Catholics do, after they die.

So what happens after the Day of Judgement? I suppose I will be on the down elevator :-)

Just back from the gym and it feels like it at the moment!!

Permalink Reply by Davis Goodman on January 26, 2017 at 7:14pm

@Reg: "Can you tell me why you do not believe Vishnu or Shiva Gods?"


@Reg's repetition of the question and a further question: You asked us for evidence for the non-existence of your God but can you show us some evidence for you lack of belief in Vishnu? Does that help you see our point?

You ignored Reg's main question and then talked about people's speaking style and spelling trivia. This isn't surprising as most Christians totally avoid answering questions that illustrate and explain their lack of belief in Allah or Vishnu or Zeus or Vampires. Why don't you answer this question? I think it's most likely because you don't have a good answer to it or if you do answer it you will be boxed into a difficult corner you might not be able to get out of.

Permalink Reply by TJ on January 27, 2017 at 6:17pm

True, as in everything in it happened as described, or true in a metaphorical/the story didn't happen but illustrates a point, sort of way?


Also, the point was not that it is difficult to explain somethings.

The point was that it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove a non-falsifiable negative...not difficult, impossible.

IE: In logic, you cannot ASK FOR or PROVIDE proof of non-falsifiable negatives.


I'll give an example:


You claim that if I loan you $10 today, you will pay me back next Tuesday.

---------------

I can accept your claim, and loan you the $10. Perhaps I heard you paid Reg back, and that increased my confidence in you paying me back too.

I can reject your claim...and NOT loan you the $10. Perhaps I heard you didn't pay Reg back, and I thought you were more of a risk.

------------------------

If I accept your claim, and next Tuesday comes, your claim is falsifiable, as, if you don't pay me back, I can PROVE your claim was false.

If I REJECT your claim....I do not need to make a counter claim, and, logically, cannot prove you would not have paid me back.

It is NOT falsifiable, as there is nothing that happens next Tuesday to falsify it.

---------------------


So, if I reject your claim, and you ask me to PROVE you would not have paid me back, its a non-valid request...as you are asking for the impossible (NOT the "difficult", the IMPOSSIBLE).

----------------------

And, my REJECTING your claim, is therefore NOT a counter claim, because I can not MAKE a counter claim for that non-falsifiable negative either.

---------------------


To put that into a theological example:


You: God exists.

Me: I don't believe gods exist.

You: Prove no gods exist.

Me: That is an invalid request...my rejection of YOUR claim, is NOT A COUNTER CLAIM.



------------------

Does this make sense to you?


If it does, please, consider telling your theist buddies that they are being unreasonable when asking atheists to prove god DOESN'T exist....

And, explain WHY rejecting THEIR claim is NOT making a counter claim that god doesn't exist.


----------------

- Thanks!
Permalink Reply by TJ on January 27, 2017 at 6:39pm

The above is related to:

 Gregg Trickett 20 hours ago

@reg

@davis goodman

Yes, I understand better now how difficult it is to explain why one does not believe something or in something. Thank you for your patience.
And



Reply by Gregg Trickett 20 hours ago
@davis goodman
I appreciate your openess; also for explaining how you are approaching the things we have been writing about.

My intentions here are not to be a drive by christian taking shots at atheists..........



... I want to understand why and how certain world view(s) influence peoples interpretation of the world around them. I also want to share my world view which is based on faith in God and a conviction that the Christian Bible is true.


(Meant to head above post for context)
Permalink Reply by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on January 28, 2017 at 6:50am

Are you sure it is “History”? On what authority are you making that claim?

I consider the Bible to be the claim for and not the proof of your Gods' existence.

Would it not be better to say that it is a Hebrew narrative? Was there an historian there on the day taking notes or is more likely to be compiled at a much later date as a literary interpretation of the traditions and oral histories of the Hebrew people?

Firstly, thanks for your honesty about what you believe. Too many Christians refuse to say what parts they consider factual and what parts allegorical when discussing the Bible.

If you take the Genesis story to be actual history then you must believe that your God created us humans in the “form” we are in today? I assume (correct me if I am wrong) you also believe that your God created the Earth in one day, possible less that 10k years ago?

Earlier in the post you put forward arguments about atoms and particles that Evolution could not explain. I mentioned that you were arguing for something that Evolution never talks about. It would seem clear to me that you do not understand the Theory of Evolution. I often meet people with similar views. Usually it transpires that they have never studied it or even been taught the rudiments of it. They are usually members of Evangelical sects and are told from the pulpit about how wrong the Theory is by a preacher or someone whose is uneducated on the subject.

This is because if you study the Theory of Evolution (from Science books and not “Watchtower” types of publications) you will come to understand that it is correct. It has been factually proven to be so. Therefore the Genesis creation account is shown not to be an historical account but an account of primitive human understanding.

Evolution does not claim to know how life on Earth started. It only deals with how life evolved after it started. You can still argue that a God started everything but not in the “forms” we are in today. Teaching Creationism to children is child abuse. That is what people like Ken Ham do.

Permalink Reply by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on January 28, 2017 at 6:05pm

No, I don’t. For the record I am not a teacher but I do educate people on various subjects that I am well versed in. Many people have a very poor understanding of Evolution. I will help to educate them when and where I can. I often get a conversation going when people ask me “what’s that on your arm?”

I do not teach anyone about Darwin’s black box except if I am talking about pseudoscience or any attempts to give Intelligent Design “theories” legitimacy within Science. The irreducible complexity (of the eye) argument is a Creationist argument that I am bored refuting. Anyone of note with the scientific community gives Behe little or no scientific kudos. A quick read of Wiki is enough to remind me of how bad I recall his ideas to be. In fact I have discussed (in person) the Irreducible Complexity argument with both Dawkins and P.Z. Myers who are quoted in that wikipage. I am not just appealing to the authority of two eminent Modern Evolutionary Biologists (as opposed to “Darwinists”) as I have also read Jerry Coyne’s book “Why evolution is True”.

Creationism is not Science. Intelligent Design is not Science. Both are attempts by Christian and Muslim fundamentalists who cannot afford to concede to the validity of the Theory of Evolution because it would negate the “God created man in his present form” argument. It is because religion cannot keep up with Science and “evolve” that it tries its best to keep thinking as it did 300 years ago. It has offered the world nothing new since.

Permalink Reply by Simon Mathews on January 28, 2017 at 8:44am
Gregg, a genuine question. How do you know that the creation story is history and not allegory? Which particular parts convince you?
Permalink Reply by Strega on January 28, 2017 at 5:51pm
Yes, evolution must be so frustrating to try to understand when you can't see cats having puppies in your tiny lifespan.

Please go and read up on the subject. Why are you posting this sort of silliness here - it's quite tiresome to repeatedly discover how poor the education system is in the USA.
Permalink Reply by Pope Beanie on January 28, 2017 at 7:53pm

Note that none of the following will make sense to you if you're in denial of the vast evidence showing the age of earth in millons and billions of years. If you feel you *must* object to the scientific evidence and overwhelming consensus, can you please explain why God made it *look* like billions of years of Earth history has passed?
There are living examples of this in "ring species". Each "end" of a ring species breaks into different "kinds". Just add millions of years to the proces that produces the broken ring, and it should be easy to see how it's natural for different kinds to come from one kind.
http://www.darwinwasright.org/ring_species.html

In addition to geographic separation enabling genetic separation, other kinds of environment gradients enable genetic separation. E.g. long periods off climate change/gradient over time, interspersed with long periods of envirooonmental stabilitity that enable species to remain as a single, stable 'kind", while leaving behind a large number of fossils that look like (because they *are*) of one kind.

Stephen Jay Gould called these periods of change vs stability in evolutionary history "punctuated equalibrium".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium

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