What would be a suitable punishment for the boys who bullied their bus monitor?

Have you seen the video?:

Leaving aside what the school or their parents might do, what would really serve the interest of justice?

Also, is no one teaching their children respect for elders anymore?

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A bank robbery begins - the bank guard IMMEDIATELY tosses his gun to the robbers - is he the man for the job? I think not. Did he rob the bank? No, but what did he do to prevent it?

You don't take a job you can't do. Well, maybe you do, but I don't.

Apparently you're not trying to live on Social Security. If you were, you might take whatever job you could get in order to be able to afford your medications, your rent, etc., and even then it would be hard.

I can certainly empathize with the difficulties of older people finding work in a youth-oriented society, but there are a number of fast-food restaurants as well as Walmart that have no age-discrimination policies. There are independent-contractor positions, such as newspaper delivery and telephone sales, that do not discriminate. A 73-year old lady lives two doors down from me, who over the past couple of years has worked herself up to a supervisory position at a telephone sales company. The internet provides lots of opportunities for home-based self-employment. My own son, a young man, has doubled his annual salary by marketing on Ebay.

You just don't take a job you can't do.

@Karen Lollis

Our perception that kids are worse now is partly due to exposure - like the youtube vid that started this discussion.

Karen, your chart means something if every crime is given a value of "1" no matter the crime. Believe me, suburban high school kids in 1965 would NEVER have abused an elderly person like that. (I'll make an exception for substitute teachers, but that's the only exception that comes to mind). Without taking into account the NATURE of the crimes, those numbers don't mean diddly.

And the fact that you'd only abuse substitutes makes your generation better? Tell your tale to the Little Rock Nine. Tell it to the Stanford Prison Experiment participants. Tell it to John Lauber. 

I'm not saying kids these days (or their parents) are better than we were (or our parents) - it's a different environment they have to navigate - some do it better, some worse. But to think that kids of our generation (I'm not too far behind you - and my siblings are closer to your age) were significantly better behaved is a crock. If everyone then was walking around with a video camera, you would have seen some of the same horrors.

Oh - and here's a breakdown by the nature of the crimes. Note that in the decade recorded here, youth crime dropped at vastly greater rates than adult crime across the board.

Karen, you have to understand that Unseen grew up in an era where little Opie Taylor walked home from school, running his little hand-leld stick along white picket fences, with no child molesters lurking to snatch him up and drag him into the basement of a vacant house.

Those days never were, but let's leave him with his de - illusions --

That's only 10 years.

Right. My first chart was 23 years and differentiated between property and violent crime. You asked for a more detailed breakdown by type of crime. Sure, the time frame on this chart is shorter. But the downward trend was already demonstrated on the earlier chart. In fact, the biggest drop was during the ten years shown on the second chart.You implied that the drop on in crime could be because lesser crimes aren't being reported or something like that. This ten year chart clearly shows that to not be the case. Some crimes went up, while the overall crime numbers went down. But to your point, simple assault went up among youth while aggravated assault went down.

I've shown you an overall 23 year trend, with detail for 10 years of that trend. I also shared several studies on the negative effects of corporal punishment. Meanwhile, I have asked you for the studies which show that corporal punishment is effective at anything other than short term compliance. And I have asked you to provide more than anecdotal evidence that 'kids these days' are worse than ever. Where's yours?

Sure, I threw in a few anecdotes on my side too. But you've even ignored those. Seriously, you think that high school kids screaming "lynch them!" and spitting on their new classmates makes your generation better than these kids? Take off your rose-colored nostalgia glasses, please.

Do you have any studies on whether kids have or have not become more insolent and disrespectful? My contentions have more to do with learning to become good citizens who respect adults than preventing kids from becoming adult menaces to society.

BTW, if you think "lynch them!" was something that was commonly said among kids (and seriously, not in jest) even in the 1960's, that certainly shows you weren't around then. Not even in my school which was in the midst of integration and where racial tensions were high.

Teachers today have to contend with brats who misbehave and more or less dare the teachers or school to do anything about it, knowing that their parents and possibly even the law will be there to facilitate their misbehavior.

I didn't say it was common. I referred to the Little Rock Nine earlier, and other students (and their parents) were yelling that at those kids - and might have followed through if the national guard wasn't there.

I have also said that kids (and parents) today are worse in some ways and better in some ways than we were. And some kids (and parents) today are outstanding in every way, just like some kids when you were young were complete punks.

But it's your turn to show some data - not just go off your perceptions.

I remember kids beating the living crap out of each other when I was in school. I remember kids taunting our 9th grade english teacher to the point that she had a nervous breakdown and lost her job. The point of this line of discussion was the merits of corporal punishment. And I'd say just about everyone I grew up with had a healthy corporal-punishment-induced 'respect' for their pops.

I’m sorry, but I think there has been too much overreaction to this bus story.  I taught physical education in middle school for many years.  It was in a crime-ridden, gang neighborhood.  I received death threats from gangbangers that made what these kids did look mild by comparison.  I even had a local drug dealer (former student) come onto the school campus and threaten me, to no effect.  And one kid threatened me with friends of his father, who was in prison for a violent crime.  What did I do?  Each case is different.   In some cases, I laughed them off in a friendly matter.  In other cases, I ignored them.  And if I was angry, I dared them to try anything.  In one case, I almost got into a fight with a 6'2", 185 lb., mean, school bully (I'm 5'3, 120 lbs.) who tried to push me around.  I took a swing at his solar plexus and he ran away.  He was expelled, but, believe it or not, we later became friends. I retired unscathed after after a long career.  The key is to NEVER allow kids like this to see you are the least bit bothered by what they are saying.  They will soon give up if they don't think they are effective.

Incidentally, in my 36 years of teaching, I NEVER used corporal punishment.  It’s NEVER necessary, and rarely effective, in the long run.  

@Dale - "in the long run" is definitely key! People think it works because it does have an immediate, short term effect. But isn't the goal with raising our kids to survive in the short run, so they can thrive in the long run?


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