"How do you explain, then, that the downward plunge in children's behavior pretty much coincides with your hippy-dippy "hit the kid, produce a criminal" theory of discipline?"
That is SO funny Unseen, considering that just yesterday, I watched a video featuring Hovind or some such theist thumper (they're basically interchangeable), asking how we could explain how all of the drug and alcohol culture just "happened" to coincide with the removal of god and prayer from the classroom.
The purpose of the video was to demonstrate ways in which theists use faulty reasoning, and postulated that just because two events appear to have occurred simultaneously, was no indication whatever that there was any form of cause and effect relationship, nor in fact, any reason to believe that there was any relationship at all.
I KNOW you're better than that --! I consider you a Master (de)bater - live up to it!
The difference is in plausibility.
Um, OK - but your hypothesis isn't any more plausible than Hovind's. Your idea is based on anecdote, urban myth and personal perception that kids are worse than ever. Maybe they are. Maybe research proves that using a belt on a child is the best way to teach them to be polite and non-violent. Where's your data? I've given you results of studies on corporal punishment. I've given you juvenile crime data. Where's yours?
They were making fun of her because her son commited suicide a few years ago. An organization was created to rise money to send her on vacations. So far more than 200,000$ has been collected. These kids should be put into therapy, their actions reflect deep internal issues. Also what they did should be noted on their academic record, no scholarships should be granted to them, no matter how good their grades are they shouldn't receive scholarships to college just so they will always remember that there are consequences to what you say to hurt others.
Thank you Gabriela, for the followup - I, for one, did not know this, and I suspect most others didn't either. And you're absolutely right about the internal issues and the need for therapy - children don't get that way overnight.
Children Learn What They Live
By Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.
If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.
If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.
If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.
If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.
If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.
If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.
If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.
If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.
If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.
If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.
If children live with fairness, they learn justice.
If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them.
If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.
So this has become a how-to-parent thread now. Mkay. I'll start by saying im totally for corporal punishment and even though it should be obvious not to the point of abuse. That being said I think it's more than just no spanking it's been no consequence at all. Im 30 and I've watched many of my friends raise kids over the last 10 years and what I see the most are empty threats and negotiating with children. Some punishment in one form or another needs to be enforced quickly and directly. Personally I'd rather of taking an ass whoopin than be grounded for a week or some luxury taken away. I think it has been mostly just lazy parenting or parents just too busy which is ever increasing. And oh yeah kids are assholes anyways. Small children can be quite merciless.
Assuming you gave him the punishment he wanted least, you spanked him? Most kids today wouldn't want to give up their video games, TV privileges, cell phone, computer, etc. for anything. Why? They wouldn't know what to do with themselves.
So, in effect you lied to him. The way you framed the question implied he had a choice, and giving someone a choice is basically a contract. When push came to shove, you pulled the double-cross.
Can he ever trust you again?
Have you been reading me that no more spanking is at the root of all the evils? No, it's parents who want to be buddies with their kids and refuse to establish themselves as the alphas in the family. Spanking wouldn't be necessary as long as the kids feared crossing their parents.
It's parents who think their little angels can do no wrong and constantly interfere with the school's attempts to establish authority over the kids and to discipline misbehavior.
I'll accept your explanation of your presentation of options to your boy.
Schools do not have authority if it's not obeyed. When I got swatted with a paddle I did not conclude from that that all violence was okay for I was guilty and the punishment was just. My parents didn't run to the school to protest, the followed up at home with their own sanctions.