Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on September 8, 2012 at 5:54pm

@Heather - on that note, I have a friend who tests in a number of schools with a largely Hispanic student population, and a primarily Anglo Teacher composition. The teachers nearly always, he tells me, Americanize the children's names - Jorje becomes George, Juan, John, ect, until it comes to Jesus, which is always pronounced "hey-sus," never Jesus - ironic.

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Permalink Reply by dave stallworth on September 8, 2012 at 7:19pm

Maybe you need to see my email to you on the outside sources about Jesus you said did not exist. 

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on September 8, 2012 at 7:28pm

@Dave Stallworth

Your e-mail, just like your outside sources, does not exist.  I'm assuming you think Josephus met Jesus or even wrote about him - but Josephus only ever wrote about the burgeoning cult of Jesus that was spreading during his day.  The rest of the 'sources' you cult devotees offer all run along these lines - not one eye witness account of a supposed miracle by Jesus.

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on September 8, 2012 at 7:32pm

@David - I'm waiting to see your response to my comment about the four guys who DID say he existed, the four guys whose names no one knows --

Permalink Reply by dave stallworth on September 8, 2012 at 7:32pm

Here it is again:

 What evidence is strongly against him? Show me this.

There is recorded evidence by outside historians like Josephus. Here is what Josephus said in his account (He was NOT a Christian);

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is lawful to call him a man, for he was a performer of wonderful deeds, a teacher of such men as are happy to accept the truth. He won over many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the leading men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again on the third day, as the prophets of God had foretold these and tenthousand other wonders about him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day.'

Also accounts from Tacttus, Pliny the Younger, and others. 

So your idea of no outside corroboration is not true. And by the way, Josephus wrote this in the first century. He had access to the thousands that saw what Jesus had done.

Jesus fulfilled hundreds of Olt testament prophecies and he did refer to it many times. The problem is that you have no "myth" evidence. It is an accurate historical account and all archeological finds have verified it. So you are as wrong about this as you are about no outside corroboration. If you admit your mistake , then maybe you will begin ti see the truth.

 

So I ask again, Who is Jesus? I think you admitted that he did live but I would like to know more of your view. and please do not mind if I offer answers or corrections if you are objective enough to receive them.

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on September 8, 2012 at 7:46pm

@Dave Stallworth

Exactly as I stated, Josephus wrote about the burgeoning cult of Christianity in existence in his day - long after Jesus was dead and gone.  His words were augmented by Christian scribes - evidence that Christianity has always bred pathological liars.  Even so, you are still lacking even a single eye witness account of these great deeds.  I mean, if the stories are true, why didn't a single witness ever write a word?  Surely at least a few Roman magistrates would have recorded something of all the ruckus, had it actually happened.

But, alas, history is devoid of a single first hand account - and Jesus himself never wrote a word.

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on September 8, 2012 at 8:17pm

Yo, Davy Boy - all of these were born after the mythical Yeshua allegedly died - certainly  none of them knew him, and any information they had was hearsay information not permitted in any court of inquiry.

Josephus -- 37 – c. 100
Tacitua -- AD 56 – AD 117
Pliny the younger -- 61 AD – ca. 112 AD

Permalink Reply by Unseen on September 8, 2012 at 8:45pm

Back in the 1960's, there was an author named Carlos Castaneda who wrote supposed first-person encounters with a guy named Don Juan, a Yaqui Indian sorcerer who could perform magic. He made a lot of money with ten or so books about Don Juan until he was unmasked as a fabricator whose stories were, at best, based not on his first-person experiences but on tall tales he heard around the campfire while smoking peyote with with the tribesmen. Don Juan never existed.

Where are the biblical first-person accounts? I suspect it comes back to your faith. You have an unfounded belief in Jesus' existence based on a bunch of tall tales lacking internal consistence among them.

Permalink Reply by dave stallworth on September 8, 2012 at 8:29pm

Your comment about Josephus has many errors. He wrote when there were eye witnesses of what Jesus did. They were there- you were not. Your comment about Josephus having Christian scribes is totally false- where is your evidence of that? There are eye witnesses even James- Jesus brother. Peter was there. and many others. You said there were no  outside references and I have given you 6. Now you dispute the outsiders historical documents. Your are building your defense on lies and unsubstantiated assumptions. Is that what atheist do? There is little doubt about Jesus and what he did. There is little doubt that he died on the Cross or do you doubt that to?  Where is your evidence to the contrary? Show me first century accounts that dispute these and I will consider them. Otherwise that is the only conclusion I can draw without other disputing evidence. and you have produced none. the 1st century accounts have to stand as valid. The records of Josephus stand as valid and historians agree.

I provided you what you had said did not exist. Maybe you need to rethink this.

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on September 8, 2012 at 8:46pm

All you need do is google "Josephus on Jesus" and you'll find plenty of references to the Christian insertions into his texts.  Had Josephus spoke to a single eye witness, he could have named that witness - but all he talked about was how 'they say' this and that.  He obviously wasn't moved by what cult devotees had to say as he never converted to Christianity himself.  That fact, in and of itself, should have you wondering why he would have ever used such hyperbolated language about Jesus in an otherwise very down to earth historic work.

You say Peter was there, but I sure hope you aren't foolish enough to believe that Peter was the author of the Petrine Epistles.  Only the most thoroughly brainwashed cult devotees manage to cling to that belief after an in depth study of the matter.  Do you actually think the brother of Jesus left any writings?

You continue to lie about giving me 6 sources - but maybe your cult-muddled brain can't remember to whom you sent the list of those sources.

I cannot show you documents of first hand witnesses who swear that Jesus did NOT do any of the things you claim, because to this day no one has uncovered any writings by anyone who actually met Jesus.

You've been provided with the birth years of the people you claim have documented your messiah outside of the bible - so you know for a fact that none of them met him.  None of them give an account of ever having met an eye witness.  The most they ever write about is the phenomenon of the growing cult around a guy named Jesus.

You can deny the facts all you like - but that's what theists do.  You favour your magical thoughts over cold, hard reality.  I feel bad for you.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on September 8, 2012 at 8:54pm

@Heather

Had Josephus spoke to a single eye witness, he could have named that witness - but all he talked about was how 'they say' this and that.

At least Bigfoot's purported existence is based on "sightings" by real people instead of rumors.

Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on September 8, 2012 at 8:56pm

BIGFOOT IS REAL~!!!  You show me one conclusive, irrefutable piece of evidence that he isn't!

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