I'm thinking about posting this to a few more religious forums, but I'd just like to hear what people have to say on here.

So, playing Devil's Advocate, and hopefully without a bunch of straw man replies, what is the best argument for God you've heard? And, if you really can't stand it, why is that argument not good enough?

My favorite is Descartes' Ontological argument- but since I don't have a clear and distinct perception of God, this one still isn't enough for me.

Excited to hear replies!

Tags: God, advocate, argument, devils, for

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I'm not sure why you think that anything 'started everything'.  Why do you think the Big bang did that?  We know it started existence as we perceive it, but we do not know if there was anything before it.  For all we know, there is no beginning, and our Big Bang could be one of an infinite series of them.

Your problem of 'what started everything', may not actually exist.  Have you thought about that?

I do not think the big bang 'started everything'. I only used it as an example because some people believe that it did.

In my paper I apply the proper mathematics in considering the possibility of an infinite series. Infinity is a highly counter-intuitive subject that leads to many bizarre circumstances sometimes called paradoxes. Likewise, the conclusion I have reached may seem counter-intuitive to anyone not versed in the intricacies and oddities of infinity. Basically I assume that no Absolute phenomenon exists, which implies that everything is caused by something which precedes it (either in time or some other dimension). From this I derive a contradiction, proving that at least one Absolute phenomenon exists which either has no cause whatsoever or somehow causes itself (i.e. it "just is"). Of course this Absolute phenomenon may itself be some kind of infinite series - I wouldn't be surprised.

Show me the peer-reviewed journal article - then I'LL be surprised!

No, our objection is to your equivocation of "We don't know" with "God did it!"  You may not phrase it in those exact terms, but as Gallup pointed out, you're just engaging in a (mathematical) god of the gaps fallacy.

My objection is to the seeming fact that you and your dad don't have enough of the courage of your own convictions to submit your math to an accepted mathematical journal for peer review, critique, and potential publication.

So basically your objection is to the existence of Absolute phenomena, because there always exists a naturalistic explanation, right?

Wrong. I have stated my objection clearly and repeatedly from the beginning. Your claim to have "proof" that is undeniable to science is false. You have no such scientific proof. You have no data. These thin-air assertions of "Absolute phenomena"-- with a capital A-- fall under the same umbrella: not scientific. 

And consequently, an infinite regress is required - otherwise we would have an Absolute phenomenon that started everything, right? Or did you have something else in mind?

Wrong. The consequences of unproven, non-existent "Absolute phenomena" require nothing but a guffaw when presented as undeniable. Ignorance requires nothing. The lack of a scientific explanation requires nothing, but it does invite non-scientific conjecture.

I've already explained and linked to what I had in mind for that conjecture: ("Here begins theoretical physics. Such as the multiverse hypothesis, which is slowly gaining traction, that our universe is one bubble in an infinite and inaccessible foam. But it's conjecture and it is presented as conjecture, not proof. Strictly speaking it's not even scientific because there's no way to test it.")

The universe could be one universe in an infinite sea of universes, rendering first cause and probability irrelevant. But as I said: we don't know and science isn't pretending to know. That's your schtick.

Would this "Absolute phenomena" be the Christian god or one of the other ones?

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