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Permalink Reply by matt.clerke on February 21, 2013 at 5:29pm

We don't ask ourselves why there are natural laws.

Speak for yourself, Unseen.

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Permalink Reply by Gregg R Thomas on February 21, 2013 at 9:15pm

Natural Laws aren't laws in the regular sense, they are explanations of relationships we observe in nature, nothing more.

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Permalink Reply by James Cox on February 22, 2013 at 3:01am

"they are explanations of relationships we observe in nature", yes and they continue to show up, why?

If we assume that these 'rules' are somehow embeded in the guts of the 'machine', how do we account for them?

I see a parallel between the rather simple rules to generate a 'mathematical fractal', and a little larger set of 'rules' that seem to govern or restrain the observed universe. I just don't know 'how' they would work without some analogue to a computer. There are some materials like DNA, that seem to offer a 'self assembly' example. Does 'natural law' act like a cellular automaton at some deep level in space/time? Maybe the 'rules' are somehow embeded at the deep level of quarks or strings, where the higher deminsions seem to play out.

This is where someone should say WUWU! Or Someone stop him!

In the multiverse model, the 'rules' could have very different states, or behaviors, some that might not allow the creation of matter, or make organic materials too unstable to ever form. We might just be a universe that allows us to think about it. If there were no unlying fractal recursion of the 'rules', some break down in the fabrication of matter, any simularity to 'conscience' never forms.

This might be a point where atheists could celebrate, because even theists would never appear.... 

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Permalink Reply by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on February 21, 2013 at 3:56pm

First watch this link then for more "math" check this out. Mandelbrot Sets.

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Permalink Reply by matt.clerke on February 21, 2013 at 5:21pm

What you are seeing is a trick of your mind. You have seen fractals before, then you see the river catchment in the picture above and your mind says "Aha! that looks like a fractal" and so you call it a fractal.

If it is a fractal, define it with mathematics. I don't think you can. I don't think anyone can. It is infact easily explained by rain: when a drop fall at any given point, it follows the same path as the previous drop to hit that point (downhill), and at any given point, it will always follow the path of the previous drop to hit that point. Each drop takes a little bit of the soil away with it, leading to a more defined pattern as seen in the image.

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Permalink Reply by Dustin on February 21, 2013 at 7:05pm

I don't understand.  Does Jesus think that his God comes from his timeless and immaterial state to pull apart a branching tree, to rip apart a single shot of lightning, to manually place every snowflake, to dig the canals in the earth so that the tree, lightning, snowflakes and water have something that all apparently looks the same?  

Does God do this himself, or does he recruit certain angels to do it?  Perhaps the fractal angel of water, the fractal angel of snow, etc?  

Or can't he simply just think that this happens in nature because of some underlying physical or mathematical principle that he simply just doesn't understand even if others do?  

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Permalink Reply by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on February 21, 2013 at 7:25pm

This might help the Goddidit brigade to get started.

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Permalink Reply by athnam on February 22, 2013 at 12:13am

math

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Permalink Reply by Belle Rose on February 22, 2013 at 12:38am

The mathematics of the universe are fascinating to me! Here's the thing about math. It is unemotional, precise, unwavering, consistent, and infallable. It is the foundation of every science and the cornerstone of our ability to understand our world and everything in it. Yes, fractals are math. (Duh) I am not a mathematician, but I do know that the consistency of the universe is built upon a structure that depends on it. So I ask you a rhetorical question, (generic you) would it be simple enough to accept that everything else that we know about the universe is built upon this discipline, therefore the answers are held within it, not in an intangible, emotional, fallible existence called the human mind where religions are born? So the question is, "why SHOULD there be a divine explanation, when everything else in our natural world can be explained (in its entirety or in part) with math? To which I add "thank god for calculators? LOL

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Permalink Reply by James Cox on February 22, 2013 at 3:10am

I'll look up my monograph on fractal geometry, and see if I can post the simple procedure to generate the Mandelbrot and Julian sets. The code is in BASIC, and fun to play with. Sadly, my old machine does not do uploads of pixs. Its about 4 lines of code, the rest, just bells and car horns... 

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on February 22, 2013 at 9:23am

Two things. 

1) I wonder if a universe that wasn't structured in such a way as to be describable and predictable using math is possible. In other words, perhaps math comes along with any universe no matter how structured.

2) The mathematician Goedel proved that All consistent axiomatic systems contain undecidable propositions (which cannot be proved). I'm not sure this is consistent with the notion that math is infallible. At the same time, this doesn't seem to loom as much of a problem most of the time.

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Permalink Reply by James Cox on February 23, 2013 at 12:55am

If that universe allows enough stability to allow the extraction of patterns in behavior, then a 'math' could appear, but I expect it would demand a 'mind' to conceive of it. I also expect that the 'patterns' that can be preceived, will depend upon the equipment available. We take so much for granted as monkeys...;p)  

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