"What is REAL ?" asked the rabbit one day..." ('The Velveteen Rabbit' by Marjorie Williams - 1922)
http://www.velveteenprinciples.com/velv ... /index.htm

I do not ask this question mischievously. It is a serious question - asked after I was abruptly woken up this morning from a very vivid dream.

There are some here who would say the picture images and accompanying thoughts & emotions, within that dream, were an illusion of reality - an hallucination, a delusion etc etc.

Maybe so to them - but it was 'real' to me.

So, with previous discussions on Dawkins 'delusions', Bering's 'illusions', Hypnotism (altered states of consciousness), Two Orders of Reality, etc, etc, I ask the question :


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"The New Atheists will not let us off the hook simply because we are not doctrinaire believers. They condemn not just belief in God but respect for belief in God. Religion is not only wrong; it's evil. Now that the battle has been joined, there's no excuse for shirking.

Three writers have sounded this call to arms. They are Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Daniel Dennett. A few months ago, I set out to talk with them. I wanted to find out what it would mean to enlist in the war against faith..."


Methinks Adriana, you have a simplistic idea of what a religious believer is.


Most believers are not 'good' just because God told them to be so - that's just blind faith. They (try) to be good because they share a common humanity with others.


But their religious faith INFORMS what they do, and say, and are.


Nice quotes.

I think the Cow is the most evolutionary advanced animal on the planet.


The Cow has learned what Humans have not. The best way to survive is to keep its mouth shut - and just say 'moo' ;) 


WOO and more WOO

Kelin , have you had a sense of humour by-pass recently ?

It seems reasonable to me to assume a certain feeling of significance is helpful to our survival. I imagine natural selection would work against those who feel utterly insignificant and worthless. A healthy ego fuels ambition and ambition is needed to find food, shelter, mates, etc.

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. - Philip K. Dick


So, it doesn't matter belief or perception. Reality just is. Anything that we create, in our mind ( the mind existing in reality ) creates an image of reality. That image can be more or less accurate ( depending on the data that comes from our senses and our reasoning that work the data we gathered ).


Everything that we think, including what an atheist can think is independent from reality. It is an instance of reality. It isn't necessarily real. Based on that, you cannot know with certainty that what you think is real because you think using a world that is created in your mind. If you want that world to seem like reality, that is your choice.


I, and generally skeptics, try to form that 'imaginary world' that is in my head to look as much as possible with reality.


Reality is a concept that lives in your head.

I was being serious Doone - and thanks for your info too.


Science, as you see, has never been very easy for me to understand - I have to work at it.


Others just call me 'thick' ;)

If Science was easy it would be your mother...

It is hard and we all have to work on understanding some of the counter-intuitive findings that come out of science.

If you immersed yourself in science thought and methods in books, magazines, and other it becomes "easier" or at least more familiar.

I'm a musician/artist and even I can grasp most of these concepts although I don't know the math behind it (although I could in principle learn and do my own research).

If you are reading and understanding Chomsky and other such books- and I mean IF- you can understand some basic simple science, even if you are "thick".

Just remember rocket science IS rocket science, and yes it is hard- BUT if you put the time in to learn, you can understand too, even if only on a rudimentary level.

My time is precious Kelin - so I need to prioritize what I do with that time.


Learning "Science" - even at its most rudimentary level - requires time.


For me, learning "Science" is important - but not the most important.


I try & spend my time on that which is most important - and if "Science" helps me in that quest - so be it.  

Doone, don't muck about wasting my time - or others - misrepresenting (& wilfully misunderstanding) what I am saying - or trying to say.
What seems "clear" to you is simply not the case - but I am sending you a "big FU" to you - no-one else - for wilfully mispresenting what I am trying to say - to further your own 'scientific' prejudice.


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