"What is REAL ?" asked the rabbit one day..." ('The Velveteen Rabbit' by Marjorie Williams - 1922)
http://www.velveteenprinciples.com/velv ... /index.htm

I do not ask this question mischievously. It is a serious question - asked after I was abruptly woken up this morning from a very vivid dream.

There are some here who would say the picture images and accompanying thoughts & emotions, within that dream, were an illusion of reality - an hallucination, a delusion etc etc.

Maybe so to them - but it was 'real' to me.

So, with previous discussions on Dawkins 'delusions', Bering's 'illusions', Hypnotism (altered states of consciousness), Two Orders of Reality, etc, etc, I ask the question :


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Thanks Neal.


Taking "the widest definition", there seems to be at least two orders of reality (ie what is 'real') - THE REALITY INSIDE our heads/brain (immaterial mind, non-physical thoughts, ideas, feelings, emotions, motivations, dreams, memories, subconscious/unconscious, 'inner space', the subjective world 'in here' etc), and THE REALITY OUTSIDE our heads/brain (eg the brain itself, body, 'outer space', actions/behaviour, the objective world 'out there').


If that corresponds with the truth (reality) in some way, then there has to be a 'bridge'/connection/interface between this reality which is inside our heads, and that reality which is outside our heads.


Is what I'm describing just another form of Mind-Body Cartesian Dualism - with the connection being the Pineal Gland ? 

OK Adriana, so what do we call this Mind-Body connection now ?
The connection between the inner subjective reality of one's own immaterial thoughts thoughts, feelings, dreams, the 'ghost' (mind) in the machine (body/brain) ....and the outer objective reality of other people, the brain itself, the material body, the world 'out there' etc

Thanks Adriana - but first I want to be clear :


Are my senses in my mind one reality, and that outside another reality ?


In other words, are there two 'realities' -the subjective inside world, and the objective outside world ? 



There is only one reality, and within that reality exists you. You model reality in your mind, and usually you believe your model is reality itself. This illusion is necessary for successful decision making. You don't have time in survival situations to ponder if the tiger is a dream. Your mind's perception of reality is real in the same sense that a picture of a tree is real. The picture is real, but it may be a drawing of a Truffula tree, or it may be a photograph of a real tree. The picture in your mind is real to you, but it is not reality.


Have you ever noticed that dreams are always more vivid when you have to pee?


You might have answered the question to your satisfaction Adriana, but not to mine.


If I read you correctly, when I dream, I am experiencing an illusion (a dream) at the same time as being in an illusion (of objective reality).


By the rules of common sense, I don't buy it.

Adriana, your philosophy sounds like Scientific Materialism, dressed in neuro-scientific language. I think we may have to agree to disagree...

Thanks George - thought for food, and food for thought.


The concept of 'eternity' and 'time' also creates a tension.


To my mind, the concept of 'eternity' is beyond the boundaries of human understanding - so best left alone, unless tension is enjoyed;)



Adriana, please be assured I do not wish to offend you, and bear no malice or hostility towards you - far from it.


We strongly disagree with each other - and that sometimes means a line is crossed which causes hurt & offence. I am sorry if that has been the case.


We should remind ourselves that such issues have caused death, war, pain & suffering - we haven't got to that stage Adriana, and I hope we never will.

Adriana, "Scientific Materialism" is a philosophical idea - look it up.


Regarding your "real bus", it is entirely possible to dream you are being run over by a bus, and feel the agony of pain, then wake up to find you have cramp.

Thank you for accepting my apologies Adriana.


What I was trying to say - badly - is that humans have a bloody history of killing, and dying for, their cherished beliefs - whether religious or secular.


You and I have our cherished beliefs. Mine are being attacked by you. Yours are being attacked by me. We attack to defend our cherished beliefs.


We are 'attacking' each other using words - but without hate, fists, bullets or bombs. 

You are making perfect sense to me, Adriana, and I suspect you are also making perfect sense to most people reading.  Reality is not a finite thing, but it begins with the things that can be observed by anyone - not images that exist only within one mind.  I'm not sure what this fellow is actually looking for.


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