"What is REAL ?" asked the rabbit one day..." ('The Velveteen Rabbit' by Marjorie Williams - 1922)
http://www.velveteenprinciples.com/velv ... /index.htm

I do not ask this question mischievously. It is a serious question - asked after I was abruptly woken up this morning from a very vivid dream.

There are some here who would say the picture images and accompanying thoughts & emotions, within that dream, were an illusion of reality - an hallucination, a delusion etc etc.

Maybe so to them - but it was 'real' to me.

So, with previous discussions on Dawkins 'delusions', Bering's 'illusions', Hypnotism (altered states of consciousness), Two Orders of Reality, etc, etc, I ask the question :


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Interesting hypothesis, especially in light of my earlier point that dreams are more vivid when you have to pee. (this is actually true).

"Fairly simply" Neal ?! You state : "Objective reality is everything that is still there when you are not."


OK- very serious question : Is a Rainbow there if I am not ? 


You also say : ""I don't think that subjective reality (our inner thought/emotion/dream world presumably?) is reality".


OK Neal - what is it then...a created illusion of the real world of objective reality ? 


If so, when I dream, I am presumably - by your logic - in an illusion having an illusion ?


If that is so, then I think that's bollocks - sorry, highly implausible.



"A play within a play" as Shakespeare would say. Why is that implausible, or less plausible than supernatural explanations?

Because Bill, you are expecting me to believe that, when I dream, there is a ghost within the ghost of a machine (the mind).


That, to me, is more implausible than the idea of reality being both an objective reality & a subjective reality. 

So you are telling me that it is more plausible for there to be two separate realities, rather than one reality with a model of it, and another model inside that model? I can build a real house, with a doll house in it, and a miniature doll house inside that one. I can't imagine how two or three coexisting realities is a simpler explanation than this. Sure, it seems real when you are playing with the doll house, but common sense tells you it is not.


I'm not talking about ghosts, but models. If you like, you can say that objective reality is what is actually real, and subjective reality is our model of what we think is real. If so, then perhaps we can agree and move on. But I think you are trying to attribute something more to this phenomenon, to invoke a supernatural explanation...


Bill, I am merely defending the view that there is both a subjective & objective reality - two separate realities.


For me, that rings true more than the idea of one big reality, with smaller "models" of that reality within it.

Careful Adriana - don't knock Descartes too much, or you may have Chomsky to contend with ;)



Adriana, I can see you've already made up your mind about me. I could disagree with your prejudices & assumptions, but what's the point ?

Neal, as far as I can see, dreams are just the Mind's 'waste products' - if we didn't dream we would get 'bunged up' and eventually get 'infected'.


Regarding rainbows, there is a powerful case which can be made suggesting you are mistaken.

"If a man says something and there is not a woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?"


my wife likes that one!

"Is a Rainbow there if I am not ?"


Yes. The light refraction through water molecules in the atmosphere that creates the image of a rainbow still happens even when we don't see it.

Yes Allen, but apparently it is only the human eye which can perceive this.


So, if the human is not there...?


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